Incest

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mkaobrih
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Re: Incest

Post by mkaobrih » Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:36 pm

Done.
The church complains of persecution when it's not allowed to persecute.
munsterdevil
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Re: Wonderfull Islam

Post by munsterdevil » Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:08 pm

chemicals wrote:That's it exactly I would imagine most of us would initially cringe at the idea but that's only due to cultural conditioning
Or, as Hylandpaddy suggests, which is a theory I am more inclined to, evolution, i.e. organisms were keen to avoid incest. I can't think of any culture (though they are bound to be a few) that accepted sibling and/or parental incest at one time or another.
Two possibilities exist: Either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying. Arthur C. Clarke
chemicals
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Re: Wonderfull Islam

Post by chemicals » Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:26 pm

munsterdevil wrote: Or, as Hylandpaddy suggests, which is a theory I am more inclined to, evolution, i.e. organisms were keen to avoid incest. I can't think of any culture (though they are bound to be a few) that accepted sibling and/or parental incest at one time or another.
Well the ould Egyptian Pharaohs were at it to keep the blood lines pure -remember Cleopatra was married to her brother etc .

Don't animals in captivity have sex with each other regardless of whether they are related or not ? ,hence all the defects in "pure bred" cats and dogs. Now I know it is different in the wild so there could be something in the evolution view alright .
its one to ponder though :?
والقس هو مجنون
Dev
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Re: Wonderfull Islam

Post by Dev » Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:11 pm

chemicals wrote: Yes indeed - the mods should open this as a separate thread
I don't see how it has gone off topic at all. The orignal point that the British politician made was that rural pakistani incest was causing birth defects in Britain and should be talked about. A discussion of incest seems definitely within that domain to me.

Anyway, meh, it is though provoking so I'll continue it wherever.
mkaobrih wrote:A good point – where does personal freedom end – should pregnant women be arrested for drinking/smoking – should congenital deaf people be prevented from reproducing - I’d say no. I’m for as much personal freedom as you can get.
Initially I agreed with you. I'm a big advocate of personal freedom and responsibility. However something didn't seem right so I thought about it some more.

Then I realized the person who is congenitally deaf has no choice in being deaf and passing on their bad* genes. While a pregnant woman who smokes and two cousins who commit incest do have a choice in passing on bad genes. Also a woman could leaving having kids by her choice till she is 45 and would increase the likelihood of Down's syndrome. We obviously can't say no you can't have kids. This really isn't simple.

So I'm inclined to agree with you but this topic really needs to discussed further.

I really don't know where I stand on this issue. I do know an arguments to ban incest based on:

1. personal disgust
2. the likely hood of genetic defects

simply aren't just.

*I know this is a terrible word and I don't like the wording. The word different isn't apt here either though.

EDIT: MD What bout the Greeks.
Last edited by Dev on Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:35 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Incest

Post by munsterdevil » Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:15 pm

@ DEV

The thread deserved a new home as once again a thread was started by Rev. to attack Islam, and thankfully we moved on from that.

What about the Greeks? Well I know the Spartans encouraged homosexuality, but I do not know about the Greeks as regards incest.
Last edited by munsterdevil on Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Two possibilities exist: Either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying. Arthur C. Clarke
Dev
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Re: Incest

Post by Dev » Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:22 pm

munsterdevil wrote:@ DEV

The thread deserved a new home as once again a thread was started by Rev. to attack Islam, and thankfully we moved on from that.

What about the Greeks? Well I know the Spartans encouraged homosexuality, but I do not know about incest.
Well I'm basing it on nothing more than how Greek mythology/religion is saturated in incest e.g. Oedipus. It's besides the point anyway. I agree with you that it's more biological than cultural.

Anyway religion has an amount to say about incest. Adam+Eve . . . everyone else? Job's daughters etc.

Some reading material on the material:
http://www.slate.com/id/2081904/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/ ... eatures103
mkaobrih
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Re: Wonderfull Islam

Post by mkaobrih » Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:13 am

munsterdevil wrote:I can't think of any culture (though they are bound to be a few) that accepted sibling and/or parental incest at one time or another.
Polynesian kings and queens were siblings.
The church complains of persecution when it's not allowed to persecute.
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Re: Incest

Post by nozzferrahhtoo » Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:36 am

There have been a few good posts on here suggesting things like Evolutionary history as explanations for the ikkyness factor as part of the problem with incest and our personal reactions to it.

I think it might be that too but also coupled with other things that are a lot more basic but so obvious that we mostly over look them.

With our siblings and other family, we spend most if not all of our life building a non-sexual relationship with them. A huge part of the reaction to incest is nothing to do with sex or genetics, but simply our reaction to the thought of changing the relationship to that degree.

That simply is not the relationship the vast majority of us have with our siblings and family, and the relationships we do have mostly work and are not ones we wish to change in any way. The idea of making such a fundamental change to such important relationships just does not work well for us.

There are a lot of different kind of relationships humans can have and they are all important in their diversity. Sexual relationships are ones we can have with nearly anyone on the planet. The relationships we have with our family and siblings are rare and limited. Risking them by taking them to a sexual level just makes little sense. It will take a relationship we will never have again with anyone else, and changes it to one we have all the time.

That said this is only my explanation for why the idea disgusts many people, it is not me saying I am against it or think it should be stigmatised or banned. As I say when the subject of homosexuality comes up, this is a dark world and that two hearts that manage to find each other in the darkness should be condemned because those hearts happen to pump blood to similar sexual organs is always abhorrent to me. I would say much the same about two people who find love and just happen to be siblings.
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Re: Incest

Post by HylandPaddy » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:03 pm

nozzferrahhtoo wrote:I think it might be that too but also coupled with other things that are a lot more basic but so obvious that we mostly over look them.

With our siblings and other family, we spend most if not all of our life building a non-sexual relationship with them. A huge part of the reaction to incest is nothing to do with sex or genetics, but simply our reaction to the thought of changing the relationship to that degree.
Indeed, it's called the Wetermarck effect. I think the taboo of incest is a combination of biological and cultural causes. Biological, because it seems an almost universal taboo and cultural because different societies have different notions of what incest consists of.*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westermarc ... rck_effect

*I ended with a preposition, what are ya gonna do about it?
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan
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Re: Incest

Post by mkaobrih » Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:26 pm

Isn’t there a tribe of human that believe that their children are not their children but that the children of their sister are their children? So your involved / related with your sisters kids but not your own.
The church complains of persecution when it's not allowed to persecute.
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