CERN's speedy neutrino

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paolovf
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CERN's speedy neutrino

Post by paolovf » Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:03 pm

I thought we had a thread on this but I can't seem to find one.

Anyway, it seems the mystery has been solved and CERN did not actually detect a neutrino travelling faster than the speed of light. Read more...

It turns out they didn't account for the GPS error, which I would have thought would have been one of the first things they'd check.
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Re: CERN's speedy neutrino

Post by Dr Raskolnikov » Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:53 pm

A stray neutrino kills a butterfly. A hundred million years later, Rick Perry is elected President of the United States.

Correlation or causation? YOU DECIDE!
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins the movie by telling you how it ends. Well, I say there are some things we don't want to know. Important things. - Ned Flanders
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Re: CERN's speedy neutrino

Post by aZerogodist » Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:15 pm

Thanks Paolovf, Last month this was all over the media, pretty much everywhere, "Einstein Wrong" "Time travel" but didn't hear a word about this, I suppose headlines like "Einstein not Wrong" or "no Time Travel" doesn't cut it.
GPS satellites used to measure the departure and arrival times of the racing neutrinos were themselves subject to Einsteinian effects
All satellites use "Einsteinian time", taking relitivistic effects into account to have the correct time, so this seems like they just overlooked it. At least it's a better than the Hubble excuse: the Americans where using their own SI-unit of miles & inches.

Last month I read a blog from Antimatter where Cormac O’Rafferty said:
A more prosaic possibility is that there is a systematic error in the extremely precise time/distance measurements necessary for the experiment. For example, the time of flight of the neutrinos is measured using a sophisticated version of GPS – perhaps there is a hitherto undetected error lurking in this method that is affecting the measurement. A few years ago, it was discovered that the moon has an effect on the curvature of the LHC tunnel, as does the TGV arriving at Geneva – these effects only show up because of the unprecedented precision involved in the experiments.
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Re: CERN's speedy neutrino

Post by Dr Raskolnikov » Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:43 pm

I've just been reading an update in New Scientist on this story: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2 ... hecks.html

Looks like the blog post you linked to was a bit premature paolovf (in that it implies the case is closed). I still reckon they'll find a measurement error in there somewhere, but until they re-run the experiment taking these other groups' comments into account they won't know whether it was down to GPS error or some other source.
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins the movie by telling you how it ends. Well, I say there are some things we don't want to know. Important things. - Ned Flanders
paolovf
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Re: CERN's speedy neutrino

Post by paolovf » Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:58 pm

Dr Raskolnikov wrote:Looks like the blog post you linked to was a bit premature paolovf (in that it implies the case is closed). I still reckon they'll find a measurement error in there somewhere, but until they re-run the experiment taking these other groups' comments into account they won't know whether it was down to GPS error or some other source.
I agree with you. Soon after I posted it, I thought, maybe I should have waited for something a bit more official.

To be honest, I was a little annoyed at the time as to how the media sensationalised the finding without following up, so I just wanted to get something out there. A bit hasty on my part perhaps.

From your post it it seems like we might have an answer sooner rather than later!
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Re: CERN's speedy neutrino

Post by DaithiDublin » Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:07 pm

paolovf wrote:From your post it it seems like we might have an answer sooner rather than later!
:lol: I see what you did there!! :lol:
As yet I have not found a single case of a terrestrial animal which fertilises itself.

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(he obviously never went to Bray)
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Re: CERN's speedy neutrino

Post by Dr Raskolnikov » Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:21 pm

DaithiDublin wrote:
paolovf wrote:From your post it it seems like we might have an answer sooner rather than later!
:lol: I see what you did there!! :lol:
:lol:
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins the movie by telling you how it ends. Well, I say there are some things we don't want to know. Important things. - Ned Flanders
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Re: CERN's speedy neutrino

Post by Dr Raskolnikov » Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:32 pm

Not to worry. No sooner had I linked the New Scientist article above than this week's copy had landed, with the pace of a veritable neutrino, on my doormat (so not yet available online). In summary:

The "OPERA" collaboration has begun a new set of measurements to be completed before submitting the final draft of the paper to a peer-reviewed journal. The team is sending tighter bunches of particles from CERN to allow more precise measurements to be taken. They will collect data from 21 October to 6 November, and expect to see between 10 and 15 neutrinos over that time.

So they have not even submitted the much-feted paper yet. Apparently they normally wouldn't submit until the collaboration was unanimous in support of publication, and 15 of the 160-strong team refused to sign because they felt the findings were too preliminary. I suspect the broader media won't be reporting the almost inevitable negative result...
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins the movie by telling you how it ends. Well, I say there are some things we don't want to know. Important things. - Ned Flanders
paolovf
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Re: CERN's speedy neutrino

Post by paolovf » Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:17 pm

No definite conclusions yet, but as it stands the neutrino's still appear to move faster than light. [source]

The OPERA collaboration have written a paper, which is available on the Cornell University Library archive. (Hopefully you can access this pdf, I can but that might be because I'm on a university network.)

It concludes:
In conclusion, despite the large significance of the measurement reported here and the
robustness of the analysis, the potentially great impact of the result motivates the continuation of
our studies in order to investigate possible still unknown systematic effects that could explain the
observed anomaly. We deliberately do not attempt any theoretical or phenomenological
interpretation of the results.
I haven't had a good chance to read it yet but at a glance there's some interesting stuff in there.
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Re: CERN's speedy neutrino

Post by Dr Raskolnikov » Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:11 pm

My favourite theory is the one where the neutrinos have left our dimension, entered hyperspace, and returned via a shortcut. That would be phenomenal because it could provide evidence that our universe exists in a higher dimensional multiverse. Whoop!
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins the movie by telling you how it ends. Well, I say there are some things we don't want to know. Important things. - Ned Flanders
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