Vaccination and autism

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sharon
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Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:49 pm

Vaccination and autism

Post by sharon » Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:39 am

I wanted to reply to some of the issues raised in the woo poll, but didn't want to go too far off topic, so I'm just setting up a new topic here.

All quotes are taken from the woo poll thread.
Martha wrote:Sharon, thank you for your informative reply. I appreciate it, but don't necessarily share your views.

Not all scientists (or doctors) are moral, honest people.
Could you name a workforce where all members are moral and honest?

Many of them are deep in the pockets of Big Pharma, providing the "desired results" of their backers. It is fairly common knowledge that much of scientific research is heavily financed by the big pharmaceutical companies; the purpose being to "push their drugs" . The bottom line for Big Pharma is Big Bucks, not our health.
Are you claiming that the results are falsified or that inaccurate data are knowingly published (as in Wakefield's Lancet paper)?
Have you evidence to back this up? I worked as a physicist for years, and know many scientists working in medical research. They are honest, good people, determined to improve the available treatments.

The big companies do exist to make money for their shareholders and have some terrible working practices. But they are very highly regulated, and they have to show clear, incontrovertible evidence of effectiveness before any new drugs are licensed. It takes years and millions of pounds of research to bring a new drug on the market. The drug companies have to work with clinical researchers in drug trials as part of this process, and only randomised controlled trials are acceptable, thereby correcting for tester bias.

Whilst a particular vaccine might benefit one person, it doesn't necessarily follow that its beneficial to another. Some people (adults and children) have stronger immune systems (healthier genes) than others and so the "one-size-fits-all" stance is a dangerous, irresponsible one, in my view.
If Big Pharma had its way, all children would be compulsorily vaccinated. In fact, this is happening in parts of America today: you can check it out on Google...
Are we all the same species or what? It is well established that the only way to rid a society of a particular infectious disease, is to ensure that a high enough proportion of the population is immunised against it. Those with the 'stronger immune system' may catch the virus, and not get too sick, but pass it on to others, who may have been unable to be vaccinated due to some illness or allergy, and who may be less able to deal with the infection. I have a friend who coaches children in sports. She cannot be vaccinated against several illnesses, since she has other medical conditions. This year she caught whooping cough from a boy whose mum choose not to vaccinate him, but thought it was OK to bring him out places when he was infectious, he didn't get too sick, but my friend was dangerously ill for a while. She's OK now thankfully.

I have not seen anything about US children and compulsory vaccination. I have seen that public schools are asking that all children except those who have good medical reasons for exemption, are vaccinated to protect the children spending lots of time together in close proximity. Some schools let parents away with religious exemptions too, so many parents are claiming to be members of religious cults when they aren't. Some parents are choosing to home-educate or school their children privately to avoid vaccination.

You say you have an autistic son. Do you know what caused his condition?
My middle son was born perfectly autistic because he has me and my husband as parents. Lucky boy. :wink:
Last edited by sharon on Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
sharon
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Post by sharon » Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:57 am

greenwitch wrote:Thanks Martha for the support but it looks like we are on our own.
I didn`t mean to cause a debate on vaccination but I wanted to point out that while proper science is a good thing a lot of current medical science is corrupted by financial interests and to my mind should be viewed with a good pinch of skepicism. The reason I singled out vaccination is that in my view it falls into the realms of pseudoscience, it rarely follows proper scientific testing eg most if not all research and trials are carried out either by the companies who will make money from it or by ìndependent researchers`who if you look a bit deeper have ties to the same companies.
Greenwitch, you also make the claim that current medical research is corrupted by financial interests. How so?

The methods of scientific enquiry, including randomised controlled trials, and peer review, mean that there are many checks in place.

How on earth can you call vaccination pseudoscience and say it rarely follows proper testing? Vaccination is one of the main benefits medical science has given us.
We are not going to agree on this topic and I don`t think this is the place for debating it. The reason for my original post was to point out that I don`t think it is right to put down people who have looked into the area of health and have decided to make their own decisions which is after all what we here have done in the area of `spiritual health`.
Joyce.
Has anyone put you down? I have explained why I think Patricia McKenna is wrong in her claims about the MMR and autism, and in her support of homeopathy. I didn't claim that you and Martha put me down when you disagreed with my earlier post!
micfur
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Post by micfur » Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:11 pm

Excellent posts Sharon. Clear, concise and logical.
bipedalhumanoid
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Re: Vaccination and autism

Post by bipedalhumanoid » Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:53 pm

sharon wrote:
Martha wrote:
Not all scientists (or doctors) are moral, honest people.
Could you name a workforce where all members are moral and honest?
The Roman Catholic Church.
Gar
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Post by Gar » Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:37 pm

I'd like to second micfurs sentiments, it's always nice to see someone who's prepared to look at a situation rationally and not assume a simple causal link between things especially seeming you're directly affected by autism.
Do you find a lot of people affected by autism or autistic spectrum disorders share your opinion or do a people believe that the MMR vaccination has caused their childs autism ? Of course I'm assuming you know other parents of autistic children and I apologise if that assumption is invalid..
adamd164
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Post by adamd164 » Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:41 pm

Ouch, this won't go down well. Far too non-populist.
Martha
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Re: Vaccination and autism

Post by Martha » Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:27 am

sharon wrote:
[b]Martha[/b] wrote:You say you have an autistic son. Do you know what caused his condition?
My middle son was born perfectly autistic because he has me and my husband as parents. Lucky boy. :wink:
How can any child be born perfectly anything, least of all, "perfectly autistic"?

ALL emotional distress, i.e., psychological disturbance is caused by environmental factors - particularly in infants - because of obvious reasons, i.e., their immature physiology.

If I was the mother of an autistic child, I wouldn't regard him or her as a "lucky" child. On the contrary, I would feel he or she was a very unfortunate child and I would try to figure out what caused his/her severe emotional distress (which is what I understand so-called autism to be).
Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.

Woody Allen
Martha
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Post by Martha » Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:27 am

adamd164 wrote:Ouch, this won't go down well. Far too non-populist.
Not in Ireland, where the "populace" don't like to talk about the Dark Truths about their shared history. We like to Keep Up Appearances in this "Christian" country of ours: old habits (no pun intended) die hard!
Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.

Woody Allen
sharon
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Re: Vaccination and autism

Post by sharon » Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:16 pm

Martha wrote:
Sharon wrote:My middle son was born perfectly autistic because he has me and my husband as parents. Lucky boy. :wink:
How can any child be born perfectly anything, least of all, "perfectly autistic"?

ALL emotional distress, i.e., psychological disturbance is caused by environmental factors - particularly in infants - because of obvious reasons, i.e., their immature physiology.
I think all children are born as perfect humans. I rejected the doctrine of original sin a long time ago.

Some children are born into poverty, war, abuse or neglect which clearly has a terrible effect on their development.
Martha wrote:If I was the mother of an autistic child, I wouldn't regard him or her as a "lucky" child. On the contrary, I would feel he or she was a very unfortunate child and I would try to figure out what caused his/her severe emotional distress (which is what I understand so-called autism to be).
My son is lucky, but not as lucky as I am to be the mum of such a great boy. He was born autistic due to some combination in the genes of myself and his dad.

He is not an 'unfortunate child' except in that he will have to put up with the ignorance, bigotry and prejudice of other people who have no clue about autism or other disabilities.

Autism is nothing to do with 'severe emotional distress'.
It is an a-typical neurology, associated with social and communication difficulties. Autistic people tend to have non-typical sensory perceptions as well, and are commonly hyper or hypo sensitive to sensations like touch, movement, sounds and lights. Autism is just another way of being human; just as there is racial and gender diversity, there is neurodiversity.

I am astonished that anyone will offer such an obviously ignorant view as that above. How many people would think it is acceptable to ask a mum what caused her own child's 'severe emotional distress'?

Read the NAS campaign site for more information on autism.
Then read this section of the site, and see if you think the boy referred to is 'emotionally distressed' or 'unfortunate'.
sharon
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Post by sharon » Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:56 pm

Gar wrote:I'd like to second micfurs sentiments, it's always nice to see someone who's prepared to look at a situation rationally and not assume a simple causal link between things especially seeming you're directly affected by autism.
Do you find a lot of people affected by autism or autistic spectrum disorders share your opinion or do a people believe that the MMR vaccination has caused their childs autism ? Of course I'm assuming you know other parents of autistic children and I apologise if that assumption is invalid..
Thanks for asking Gar, and for the nice comment too!

There are some parents who still claim their children were damaged by the MMR, but the numbers are falling as more realise how flawed this theory is, and how it appears to be more about winning lawsuits than protecting children.

I am in contact with loads of autistic people and parents of autistic people. They would all share my views on the non-theory of MMR causation. I tend to favour contact with those espousing a similar ethos of autism as something to be accepted and understood, and of autistic people as deserving of respect, good ethics and education and well placed support and accommodations.
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