Atheist Ireland Forum

The secular issue is the debate of our time, I would say. The only thing that we can do is mobilise. Every single time I read something pertaining to atheism or secularism, I hear about how getting atheists together is just trying to herd cats. I abhor the whole 'brights' idea, but we need a collective identity and we need numbers.

If the constitution is to be 're-examined', as I read in some election manifestos, do you think that the constitution could 'protect us' in this battle, so to speak?

No re-examination will protect us as the courts have already interpreted certain Articles in a manner consistent with Catholic Church teaching. Only the people can change the Constitution.

Unfortunately we are at the stage where no political party recognises that there is an issue with the Constitution. They all believe that the problem lies in the fact that there are no non-denominational schools and not enough multi-denominational schools. Where this is true it is not the full picture. Opening up a significant amount of non-denominational schools and even getting some from the Church will not solve the problem. There will always be minorities in every town and village in Ireland and where are these people to send their children to school. The state cannot afford to fund schools in every town and village in Ireland and anyway this will only cause segregation.

The recent Discussion Paper issued by the Irish Human Rights Commission and the process that we have entered into should help define the problems. They will be making recommendations to Government under Section 8 of the Human Rights Commission Act.

Any re-examination of the Constitution with regard to education cannot ignore these recommendations as the Commission is legally mandated to uphold human rights and point out where the constitution is failing.

Thank you for replying, first of all. This answers my question quite succinctly.



With regard to your comment that it all rests with the people, I suppose I can see problems immediately. I'm fairly convinced that no party recognises the problem, especially in light of some of the responses to the 'six questions' from Dublin West's candidates. Patrick Nulty's reply was basically that would like to see change, but didn't see it happening any time soon. Then Leo Varadkar put me off even considering him with his glib 'I don't support secularisation. I do support pluralism and tolerance' remark. But as for the current zeitgeist, I can only speak for people I know. One thing I keep hearing that gets on my nerves is this complaining about how 'minorities' (synonymous with 'foreigners', in this case) are trying to 'get their way, expecting a CATHOLIC school to make special preparations for THEIR children, hmph'.

Clearly people have been rubbed the wrong way by the case of Martijn Leenheer. I don't think that many people in my area really know what is being sought and why, and this almost provokes some thoughts of resignation on my part.

I had an awfull lot of these reactions but eqally amount of people that agree. A lot of the fuck off foreigner brigade don't realize they are a minority as well. I have Catholics in my surounding who do agree with me, most only don't like me going public about their school. But as you could see even the supporters of the principal of that school basically agree with me. I think more people want secular education than you actually think.

I had the green party's candidate for Sligo/North Leitrim (Johnny Cogan) at my door while he knows I don't have a vote to tell me he is supporting what I do. One of his canvasers is a practising catholic and he told me to keep going too.

Besides I have been very clear in my message: the school promised me something but didn't keep their promise. Simple. The fact that they go on about me being foreign is just so they don't have to go into the discussion which they know they will lose.

Well, I am unsure of just where this country 'is' wrt secularisation, but I could only speak for 4-5 encounters I've had with this debate. All of them have left me feeling incredibly sour, to be honest. My own family support the idea, I think, but make liberal use of the 'argument from personal experience' when considering the 'role' God plays in our lives, and how we need him deep down. If you take a look at my avatar, you can see that I have a somewhat foreign look about me even though I'm Irish as far back as we've examined. It almost puts me off debating the issue, frankly. People just seem incapable of extricating the 'when in Rome' mentality from this whole thing.

Again, this is just my limited experience. The examples you've mentioned of Catholics even being on board are uplifting, but I myself have not encountered that viewpoint all that much.

I think that is because most people that do agree normally don't say anything because they don't want to offend a catholic or want to be named a bad catholic. Don't get me wrong half the village is angry at me but most and foremost because it is their school.

There are 250.000 non religious peole on the last census and I hope a few more on the next one. This is the second larged group in Ireland, you are not alone by any means.

Wow, I feel really silly now. I was talking about you in the third person when you've been in this thread and on this forum all along. My apologies.

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Hhaha don't feel silly! My forum name not that obvious. And you don't have to apologies for anything.

I should apologies for not stating that I am Martijn, see lots of people on the forum know that and then it easy to forget that new people don't. So my apologies, I should have been clearer.

Good article in the IT today

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ire ... 29135.html

"keep the lack of faith" lads

At last something we cab agree on with the church!

Watch out for the bit that says "Plurality of patronage as far as possible".

That means human rights as far as possible.

So on the ground the only people that will come under the "as far as possible" will be us.

I did realize that but at least he is recognising it is very old fashoined. That is more than you normaly expect from them.

Agreed.



Is that so? Well, the efforts thus far have been purely to guard against irrelevance, by holding on to as much power as possible.



I keep seeing 'pluralism' or synonyms for it. A quick control + f confirms that I did not miss the word 'secular' anywhere. I appreciate that Martin is quite liberal in his views, though.

I think the church will have to be a bit more liberal in order to keep some folk in church. I have no illussion that that is behind this, never the less I am happy they regognise it.

You may believe that his words are plain and can simply mean nothing else but what plain English tells you they mean but do not be fooled.

He is bound by Catholic Church teaching and Catholic Church teaching and human rights law are incompatible. The reason that he is coming out with all this is because the writing is on the wall.

Nowhere does he say that a Catholic religious ethos disrespects minorities and breaches their right to freedom of conscience. He does not say it because Catholic Church teaching simply does not accept that integrating religion into all subjects breaches the human rights of minorities that have no choice but to attend that school. State funding for denominational schools is conditional on minorities attending those schools and opting out of religion. Reciting prayers has always been the practice of a religion. Plurality of patronage 'as far as possible' will still mean that some children will be reciting Catholic Prayers when they have been opted out of religion.

Integrating religion into all subjects equals diversity according to Catholic Church teaching. So plurality of patronage can mean on the ground integrating religion into all subjects. Remember the VEC call Community Schools multi-denominational when they all operate either a Catholic or Protestant religious integrated curriculum. In fact the State has told the Council of Europe that these schools are non-denominational. So plurality of patronage at second level still means that the majority of schools are religious and integrate religion into all subjects.

The problems are in the Constitution not the fact that there are not enough non-denominational schools.

Opting out of religion is opting out of reciting Catholic prayers.