Atheist Ireland Forum

I was talking to my religion teacher and mentioned the opt out religious education clause in the constitution and she informed me that while I could opt out of the class, the school is obliged to make me study 2 hours of religion a week, so I would have to study atheism (clearly thinks atheism is a religion) in a separate classroom. Is this true, as i was completely unaware of this?

First of all welcom to the forum!

I don't think they can make you study anything, but reading Dawkins and Hitchens for two hours is not to bad! LOL.

Marks on this forum will be able to tell you for sure though.

Pending a more definitive reply from Marks, my experience is that they cannot oblige you to study a religion or even atheism. The usual next defence they use is that they have no separate room and you must sit in the classroom and study something else.
My daughter has taken this option and finds it very useful for doing homework in other subjects. She particularly loves it when there is double religion at the end of the day.
And fair play to you for standing up for your rights.

Believe me there is nothing in the Education Act or the Constitution that obliges you to study a religion or atheism especially if you have opted out of a particular religion.

Section 30 – (2) – e of the Education Act 1998 reads as follows:
Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (1), the Minister,
“shall not require any student to attend instruction in any subject which is contrary to the conscience of the parent of the student or in the case of a student who has reached the age of 18 years, the student.”
You can opt out of taking the religious instruction class but as the school are not responsible for your supervision if you opt out you probably will be required to sit in the class.

As they cannot legally make you study anything that is against your conscience they are mistaken if they believe they can make you study another religion.
You should try and get the Religious Education Policy of the school. I very much doubt that it will state that any student that opts out of religion will be required to study atheism.

They probably will tell you that you have to study philosophy as that is what they told my children they must do. However I very much doubt that they can oblige you to study even philosophy as it is not on the curriculum and you have not chosen it as one of your subjects. My child just studied and they could not make her study philosophy.

They are also obliged to publish an admissions policy under Section 15 – 2 (d) which states that they must publish, in such manner as the board with the agreement of the patron considers appropriate, the policy of the school concerning admission to and participation in the school ...etc

I don’t believe that the admissions policy will state that participating in the school means that if you opt out of religion as you are entitled to do you will have to study another religion or atheism. Plenty of students I am sure are undecided about these matters but still wish to opt out of religion. You could always try saying that Atheism is against your conscience as well as you have not decided yet on these matters.

The best thing to do is to put it in writing and quote the above section 30 of the Education Act 1998. If they continue to state that you must study another religion or atheism ask them to put it in writing. Tell them that you are not doing it as you are making a formal complaint to the Board of Management and if you are not happy with that to the Minister for Education.

There you go!

If you need any help or support don't hesitate to ask us. Well done for standing up for your rights.

Thanks so much for the help, I would normally be perfectly happy to sit and read Dawkins or such but my leaving cert is only 3 months off at this stage and I'm trying to get as much study time as possible. What initially lead me to this site was I googled 2 hour religious instruction in schools or something similar and i got a link to viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4013&start=15 where you said "Your school is legally obliged to teach Religious instruction (formation) for 2 hours per week". I assume thats where my teacher got the idea. Does that mean there obliged to give it to willing students or what? I had a look at the admissions policy but its really quite lightweight and only really deals with catchment areas for admissions and other similar things with no mention of religious education. The teacher has a masters in theology so I'd really like to know what im talking about when I go to her.

A masters in theology will not help as the fact of the matter is that you have a Constitutional Right to opt of anything that is against your conscience. If they had a masters in the law she would not have suggested that you study another religion.

All second level school in Ireland are obliged to have a religious instruction class. However that does not mean that you have to take it. You may have to sit in the class while it is taking place.

If they say that you have to take atheism or philosophy ask:-

“where does it say that”?
“where is the policy document”?

Look for everything in writing as unfortunately I have found that they discourage students from opting out by putting obstacles in their way.

As far as I can remember there are some recent Guidelines out about how to deal with students who opt out of religion. They are not statutory Guidelines and were put together by some organisation or another. I think these Guidelines suggest that minorities must study their own religion if they opt out but again they are not statutory.

If you are 18 you can always leave the school premises and head for the local coffee shop (if available) to study while the other students are taking religion. Legally the school are not obliged to supervise you when the religion class takes place.

Thanks for all the help guys, I'm going to say it her when i see her next.

let us know how you get on, if you need to write a letter let us know and I will help for sure and I think other people here are willing to do the same.

i didn't know that either

Fair play to you! It's not easy to stand up for yourself in a school environment, where most students just go with the flow for the sake of an easy life, and the authority of the faculty can be so intimidating. That shows great strength of character on your part.

And excellent advice from Marks!

As Tulip1 said, there's plenty of support here. I'd also mention that a friend of mine is the education editor for one of the better daily papers. He'd be very interested in your story if you ended up with a battle on your hands. The reaction to a potentially negative story is more intimidating than even the minister, I have no doubt.

Keep us posted.

Is there an exam on religion? I thought I heard that there is for the junior-cert, if so can students opt out?

Hmm! So many choices...

There is a Religious Education course at second level under the curriculum. It is an exam subject at junior and leaving certificate level. It is supposed to be suitable for all religions and none but it is not up to human rights standards. They say it is ‘about’ religions and beliefs. All second level schools in Ireland are also obliged to have religious instruction classes during the school day. Even VEC so called multi-denominational schools at second level are obliged to have religious instructin classess which is different than learning about religions and beliefs.

What is happening on the ground is that they are combining the religious education course under the curriculum with religious instruction and presenting it to students as suitable for all. Schools are obliged to allow two hours per week for the religious education course under the curriculum but they are also obliged to ensure that there is two hours of religious instruction during the week. In a busy schedule most schools will not have the time to permit four hours of religion per week so they just combine the two courses and fail to inform parents.

I know. That was a tough adjective to come up with, given the choices! It's not my place to name names though. He's not an atheist, but not observant either. Probably one of those 'cultural Catholics' we've been hearing so much about lately.