Atheist Ireland Forum

Thanks for the advice Ygern. It's a pity I didn't have it to listen to before I got dragged into just such an argument on Politics.ie. Bad idea. Whoever said that you should only talk politics or religion if you're looking for a fight was on to something. Quite a lot of anti-scientific and anti-atheist vitriol doing the rounds over there.

I can imagine. But trying to provide evidence to someone who is in the evidence-denial business is like filling a sieve with water.

We don't have the worst of it here in Ireland. For the most part evolution is regarded as relatively uncontroversial in Irish schools. But wherever someone has been taught that evolution is wrong, they are also taught to make a point of evangelizing about their belief.

Here's an example of it: Why Evolution is True.
The speaker, Jerry Coyne, is one of the best go-to guys in the business of evolutionary genetics and biology and his talk specifically addresses several old Creationist arguments and provides evidence to refute them all.

Notice that the comments are being currently dominated by one "amiritizcool66" who to the uninitiated might appear to be asking genuine questions about evolution. Except that every one of his so-called points is addressed by Jerry in his talk, complete with backing evidence and is subsequently utterly refuted. If this idiot had watched the video he is criticizing he would not look so dim-witted in his questions. But he is not going to watch the video. He is there only to try to try to get readers to go & look at creationist websites. Arguing with him just provides him with incentive to continue.

That's it, quite simply. Leave these people alone.

It's not just nutcases either. I recently was accused of 'cognitive dissonance' on Reddit for saying that it is crazy to believe in Allah (et al.) but not crazy to believe that there is complex extra-terrestrial life. (NOTE: it also wouldn't be crazy to believe the opposite. I personally am undecided, but believe it is very possible) When I carefully explained that one belief is founded on Bernoulli's rule, the Drake equation, possible theories of abiogenesis etc., theists still said that it was no better than believing in god.

They are determined to:
1) bring scientifically founded 'belief' (really, from an 'armchair epistemological' view, 'knowledge) down to the same level as blind faith
2) argue that, since it is just another 'faith', they can and should reject it along with every other religion.
3) ?????
4) send everyone back to the dark ages!

You need to be more specific in point 3 i"m afraid. What is that? Divine intervention maybe

Understand is never as easy as most of the people might think. That's at least what I think...


*edit*
I noticed it even today, when I was forced to understand the reaction of a friend of mine...

I recently received a booklet entitled 'Creation or Evolution', published by the United Church of God (gotta love that!).

It was in one of those sidebar adverts that comes up on YouTube, so I submitted my details to their site and 4 weeks later the funniest thing in a long time dropped through my letterbox.

You can imagine what it contains, but I'll sum it up with one example that illustrates the disparity between what science does and what creationists believe passes for science.

It is a 71 page booklet. The first 69 pages are devoted to refuting the evidence for evolution. Page 70 carries the heading The Bible Explanation which contains 2 quotes from the bible and one quote from Readers Digest. And that's it!

I haven't read it all, the humour goes out of it very quickly. The point is that anyone quoting Readers Digest to counter a scientific principal is harder to debate than someone who has respect for the scientific method.

It's one of the important things to remember about the opponents of evolution if you ever encounter someone arguing about it: they do not have a working theory, and those leading the movement know it. Not all their followers are aware of it though. "God did it" is of course a hypothesis not a theory, but I guess the distinction might be lost on fundamentalists who believe this.

I linked to this before elsewhere, Barbara Forrest has researched the Creationist lobby quite comprehensively. It is very worthwhile to watch as it explains a lot of what is going on and why. It can provide anyone wanting to debate on the subject with some excellent information.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL4_x9KRVj8

And here's the scary truth that explains why. It's a short clip from a biology class in Dayton, Ohio. These poor kids never had a chance. Whatever about what they learned at home, faced with a creationist high school science teacher I can't see any of them ever even setting foot on 'Mount Improbable'.
If it wasn't so tragic, it would be funny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNGGNomLx_c


Thanks for the Barbara Forrest link. I'll look forward to that later.