Atheist Ireland Forum

I'm 29. I'm married.(Huge Church Wedding). I have one daughter.(17months old). One more due in August. My daughter was baptised. I stood on the altar and lied to the Priest and my brother the Godfather also an Atheist lied too. But it is a dance we must dance in order to keep our families, our community and our children equal within our society. Isn't it??
My approach is this: My whole family is Catholic with the acception of my brother and myself. My wife's family are all Catholic. None of our family members are huge church goers, but still feel that certain things are needed such as Baptism, Church weddings, Communion etc etc. My wife is slowly turning towards Atheism. However, we intend to send our children to the local N.S 2mins away. Very very Catholic. We intend getting our children baptised and communion and confirmation. Not because we believe in it. But so they simply FIT IN. I will explain to them all the way through life about Atheism and my views so that after they get confirmed they can then say you know this is all shit I quit, or yes I believe in God. I am a Catholic. Their choice. I was brought up without any Atheist in the family and yet still got here. So they will get here much faster won't they?? Yes I am a hypocrite. Yes I am confusing the issue. Yes there are better ways. But you know what? This is the way that makes my life easiest. Any other suggestions for me would be really welcome.. Thanks guys.

I have great empathy for your situation and I am sure that many atheists make the same decision. However, speaking for myself, I want to make my own stand where I can. I don't hide my atheism and want to be known as an atheist so that gradually it becomes more acceptable as an option for others. I don't want to be counted among the religious by default. And finally, I want to spare my own child from faith formation if I can help it. However I appreciate that all of us must choose our battles wisely, everyone's situation is different.

One of the reasons I'm a member of this forum is to draw insights and support from the like-minded in this effort, perhaps you can too.

I don't have kids, but I can appreciate not wanting to use your children to fight your battles for you. And what I mean by that, is that I consider children (esp. of primary school age) too young to be considered atheist or religious.

For a parent to label their children as either is unfair. Those are things you should decide for yourself only when you feel ready.

On the face of it, the other parents in your kids' school don't seem to have those concerns and are content to have their children indoctrinated and labelled.

Under the surface, however, I can't help wondering just how many of the other parents in this 'very, very Catholic' school' are people just like yourself. Doing whatever they think is necessary to assist their children in 'fitting in'.

How many are carrying on these roles for themselves also? Is it the community that matters to them, or the faith they must depict in order to take part in it?


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And welcome along, btw!
Dave

The majority of people do not complain about the situation they find themselves in. The get their children baptised just to fit in and they don’t say a thing.
I’m not judging you or anyone else because I appreciate how difficult the situation is but the fact of the matter is that the Government claim that people like you do not exist. They go to the UN and say that there is no evidence that parents are getting their children baptised just to get into and fit into the local Catholic school. There is no evidence because people will not complain and the result of this is that the battle just gets harder. They are going to the UN and are using your wish for your child to fit in against our claim that you do exist and that we have no rights in the education system.

Well I found out first hand what speaking out does to you in a community, so I fully understand where you come from.

As Marks said it is difficult since people like you don't exist according to the government.

I wish we had a way of proving that you do.

Anyway this is a personal decission I cannot comment on. I am the last to judge you since I have it a lot easier since I grew up in an atheist surrounding in a country where religion is something you do in your own time.

The Equality Authority registers complaints. That does not mean that you must actually lodge a complaint with the Equality Tribunal. You may take a different route or even decide that you cannot go ahead with lodging the complaint.

Out of the whole country there was only one complaint last year on the grounds of religion. I will give you one guess on who that was. On those figures there is only one family in the country that has an issue with the religious integrated curriculum.

Perhaps you should bear the burden you're avoiding so your kids don't have to. Whats best for your kids and whats easiest for you will rarely coincide.

+ 100
If you want things to change - you’ve got to at least move towards change.
Well said Dev.

If you lie to your children, your family and your community and teach your children to lie in order to fit in with the crowd, what do you suggest parents should do with children who are disabled, gay, red-haired, left-handed, black? What should they do to 'fit in'?
The most important lesson in growing up is to realise that everyone is different and has a right to be different. I hope you make it one day.

Anything for an easy life, eh? No doubt, when true equality is achieved and it's easier for you to live a life without hypocrisy, you'll be grateful to those who took a stand for what is right. In the meantime, just try not to get in our way, OK?

It's not too late to turn this around You're situation is very similar to mine. Both my partner and I are atheists. We have a daughter of 4 years who was baptized and have a son who is 4mths. It was only when I became a parent that I felt forced to confront my non belief in a god. At the time of my daughters birth I still did not feel ready to make my break from the RC church public. Yes I did lie during the baptism and felt incredibly guilty about the whole situation. I suppose my reasons at the time were about confronting my family and not feeling confident about doing this.
My family had always been aware that I did not attend mass or have any real interest in anything religious. My mum commented once that she hoped that I would 'come back' to the church one day. Living in a very catholic community in the north its more of a huge cultural norm and standing apart from this seemed very daunting. Yet luckily we have have some close friends & even some family members who are committed atheists who have stated that there will be no baptisms for any of their children. {no children at present). Four years down the line things are different. We made the decision that our second child will not be receiving a baptism. Instead we have chosen a baby naming ceremony as a way of welcoming our son into our family. With regards to our daughter she will not be receiving any more sacraments. ( It will be my responsibility to explain why I baptized her when she's older)

To be honest I couldn’t see how I could keep up a charade for then next 10+ years without my children realising that mummy & daddy have been pretending all along. As my own parents raised me to be catholic I would be pretty shocked if I found out that they didn’t believe in a god after all. Wouldn’t any one!

All I can say is that of course it is going to be a struggle and in a way parenting always is and probably should be if you want to get a good result. Even now I explain to my daughter that I am just raising her to be a good person, the best person that she can be. And yes family members may be shocked but they'll get over it. They're not the ones raising your children. They may even appreciate your honesty as we have explained that we wish our children to choose for themselves when they can make their own informed choice. In fact since your brother is also an atheist you have at least some family support already. Seek out like minded people and you and your wife will grow in confidence that standing apart from the group is liberating in itself.

I wish you all the best!

Lads, that's very harsh. Fear, I know from this site that you didn't go through with the religious charade and officially ‘opted out’ of religion with your kids and you and your kids are to be commended on this. Remind me, did you do this officially in their junior school as well? However, each person is different and when it comes to raising kids, I think it’s very unfair to judge people when you’re not in their shoes.

I can appreciate the OP’s situation. When you read about other people’s experience of speaking out, it would take a brave person to speak out on their own behalf given the possible consequences. To speak out on behalf of your kids given the possible consequences for them is an entirely different matter and is one I have struggled with.

For my part, as it happens I don’t think what the OP is doing is helping others in his situation nor possibly his kids in the long run, but I don’t know his individual circumstances and for that reason wouldn’t be quite so quick to rush to judgment.

Derek, do you have children?

I have a 6 year old in senior infants in a state run primary (catholic) school. He hasn’t been baptized and he won’t be making his communion. I’ll deal with the fallout from it when it arises. I wish more atheist parents would do the same, because if there was a significant amount of children in 2nd class not making their communion and less ‘going with the flow’ the school would be forced to come up with a real alternative/ proper solution than just having the non-participatory kids just sitting through it all.

However, I have not formally requested for my child to ‘opt out’ of religion because it’s an utter waste of time. Again, I agree that if more people like me formally asked for their child to be officially excluded it would help those coming behind me. If it was just me and my decision and was just going to affect my life, I’d do it in a flash. However, I have my child’s well being and happiness to consider and unfortunately, due largely to the evolutionary instinct I have to protect and cherish my children I haven’t done it because it would be 100% symbolic with nothing but a negative impact on my child.

As it stands, after a year and a half of primary education, he has absolutely no concept of god, jesus or religion. I know because I ask him every now an again and it has so far gone completely over his head. Last year and this year, at the parent teacher meeting I raised the issue with his teacher, telling them that we’re not religious and would like them to bear this in mind. Both teachers were very sympathetic and said they would bear it in mind.

Is it selfish of me not to officially ask fro them to be ‘opted out’ even though it would make not on iota of difference to the indoctrination they currently get? Yes. But I have my child’s best interest at heart.

It will be slow, but if more parents start by not having their kids communed, we’ll get to the stage where a real alternative will be on offer and a proper ‘opt out’ facility might become available.

I don't think so. Imagine. if you will, that this was an environmentalist forum, and the original post was someone declaring their green credentials, but saying that due to their desired position in society, they were unwilling to give up or downgrade either of their two petrol-guzzling cars, to waste less food, to buy organic, or indeed to do anything eco-friendly that was at all inconvenient. I think they would deservedly get a similar reaction to the OP here, and for the same reasons.

In general I've no great issue with the apathetic approach. I understand that people have to choose their battles, but posting on a forum to the effect: "I agree with everything you stand for, but I'm going to behave exactly like someone who holds a contrary opinion, because it's easier for me" is going to attract the criticism of people who are passionate about righting a wrong in society.



Yes, I have one son. He's almost two. I wasn't raised Catholic so I don't have to deal with any flack regarding not having him christened. If he doesn't get into a non-discriminatory school I will have to face the issues of attempted indoctrination and religious rituals. I understand that pretending to my son and everyone else that we're Catholic would make things easier in this one area, and would spare him being marked in any way as different, but I think the costs vastly outweigh the perceived benefits. Also, beyond a simple cost-benefit analysis, it is flat-out wrong to pretend I am something I am not. I can't say for sure that I wouldn't renounce my beliefs under the threat of torture or death, but the threat of a few raised eyebrows, and ignorant remarks? What sort of man would I be - what sort of father would I be - to fold that easily?

I don't think you're comparing like with like here. In your example it's just someone saying 'I can't be arsed because it's easier not to bother'.

In fairness to the OP when he said I don't think he simply meant that it's just less hassle for him and is probably including the well being of his child in the equation. Perhaps he could confirm this?



As it happens, this is where I agree with you. But as I said, I think some of the relpies were a bit harsh as it's not just him he's taking into account when making his decision. He did ask for people's opinions/ suggestions.



I’m in a similar situation, even though I was raised a catholic we got little or no stick for not baptising our kids.



Again, I’m in agreement with you. We haven’t baptised our kids and they won’t be making communion. It will be a difficult situation when it comes to it, but we’ll deal with it. But like I said, everyone is different and when it comes to raising kids people do what they think is best for their kids.



This whole reply to me is a far better and reasoned argument than simply denouncing him as you did originally, without suggestions, help or advice. That’s why I felt it was harsh. Is it not better to encourage debate on this issue with someone who has time to change his mind rather than simply telling him not to ‘get in our way’?

It is impossible to opt out when religion is integrated into the curriculum. I opted my children out of the religious instruction class but discovered that despite this one of them still just accepted at eight years old that there was a God. Some schools are worse than others as it depends on how they uphold their religious ethos. In our second level school they prayed for atheists over the intercom. One of the damaging things about a religious integrated curriculum is that it teaches children that respect can mean coercing and influencing minorities into a religious way of life. How can minorities opt out of that, it is impossible.

The obligation on the State under human rights law is to ‘respect’ the religious and philosophical convictions of all parents. There is also a “duty of neutrality and impartiality” on the Irish State under the various Human Rights Conventions that it has ratified in relation to religion and education.

In Ireland Rule 68 of the Rules for National Schools is the state being neutral and impartial which says:-

“Of all the parts of a school curriculum Religious Instruction is by far the most important, as its subject-matter, God’s honour and service, includes the proper use of all man’s faculties and affords the most powerful inducements to their proper use. Religious Instruction is, therefore, a fundamental part of the school course, and a religious spirit should inform and vivify the whole work of the school. The teacher should constantly inculcate the practice of
charity, justice, truth, parity, patience, temperance, obedience to lawful authority, and all the other moral virtues. In this way he will fulfil the primary duty of an educator, the moulding to perfect form of his pupils’ character, habituating them to observe, in their relations with God and with their neighbour, the laws which God, both directly through the dictates of natural reason and through Revelation, and indirectly through the ordinance of lawful authority,
imposes on mankind.“

Boards of Management can interpret the above Rule whatever way they want and it all depends on what school your child attends.

Most normal people would not believe that Rule 68 of the Rules for National Schools can be construed as the state being ‘neutral and impartial’ with regard to religion so it is just beyond understanding how a religious integrated curriculum is respecting the philosophical convictions of non-religious parents.