Atheist Ireland Forum

Ruairi Quinn has just announced a discussion paper on school enrollment policies.

At present Irish state schools have an exemption to the equal status act which allows them to refuse a child a place on the grounds of religion. This issue is not even on the agenda of the discussion paper. The minister has said himself that the discussion paper is 'is not meant to be prescriptive'. So even though it's only a discussion paper, we can't even discuss this issue.

Here's the paper:

http://www.labour.ie/blog/2011/06/14/ev ... t-school-/

Here are the relevant paragraphs relating to religion and faith:



Here's the exemption to the equal status act:



I've e-mailed the minister directly (minister@education.gov.ie) in a personal capacity and I also left a message on the Facebook page promoting this:

https://www.facebook.com/#!/thelabourparty

You may have to 'like' the page to comment.

I should add, not only do they have the right to refuse a child entry to their state school on the grounds of religion, catholic children get preferential treatment. So, if a school is over subscribed and a non-catholic child is first on the waiting list having had his/her name down for the school since he/she was born, if a catholic child moves to the locality a month before the school term starts, they jump the queue ahead of non-catholic children.

Quinn was on Matt Cooper this evening and he equated religous ethos with gael scoileanna. This is a red herring. How many gael scoileanna are the only schools available in an area? How many parents force their kids to learn Irish from an early age against their wishes and better judgement in order to get a place in a gael scoil? How many catholic schools are the only schools in an area? How many parents get their kids baptised against thier wishes and better judgement in order to get their kids into the local school? Is this not worthy of discussion??

I put up a comment on the Labour Party site as well.

The issue is that by ratifying the various UN Conventions and the European Convention on Human Rights the State has guaranteed to anyone within their jurisdiction a right of access to educational institutions existing at a given time. That right must be guaranteed without discrimination of any kind. Section 7 3 (c) of the Equal Status Act is religious discrimination and therefore denies minorities their human rights.

Ruairi Quinn can equate it to what he wants but the fact remains that it is religious discrimination.

The UN are very clear on this issue and under Article 13 of the International Covenant on Economic Social and Cultural Rights they say the following:-

"Non-discrimination and equal treatment
31. The prohibition against discrimination enshrined in article 2 (2) of the Covenant is subject to neither progressive realization nor the availability of resources; it applies fully and immediately to all aspects of education and encompasses all internationally prohibited grounds of discrimination. "

Giving preference to Catholics in the only school in a specific area is forbidden and as the Dail and Ruairi Quinn have already ratified this particular UN Convention he and they are denying us our human rights. Telling us that it is not up for discussion is a joke.

I've been in correspondence with the Department of Education. Particularly with Ian O'Mara, Ruairi Quinn's political adviser.

I reiterated the points made above to him. Here are some of his replies:







I replied to him saying that although the Forum on Patronage is long overdue and is to be welcomed, it's a separate issue to enrolment and asked; What about the children, whose names get on a list for a school in time, who are subsequently shunted off the list and refused a place because catholic children move to their area and take their place?

and; What about the many, many parents who feel forced, against their wishes and better judgment, to baptise their children in order to ensure their child's place in the only local school?

All I'm asking for here, for the moment, is for this issue to be included in the discussion paper. What chance do we have of effecting any real change to the education system which widely discriminates against non-catholic children across the board if we can't even talk about them?

He replied again to say;



I strongly urge people to do so.

Let’s at least be allowed talk about this issue!

ok I'll start writing

Bump
The deadline for this is 28 October.
http://www.education.ie/servlet/blobser ... _paper.pdf

oops I forgot if I wrote to this one already or not. mmmm maybe just write again under my wifes name!

The discussion paper seems to be a way for the Dep of Education / Minister to handle enrolment under the 1998 education act. I don’t know anything about law but is the act written in stone so to speak – can it not change? All these little add-ons and tweaks is still just covering up the cracks in the system and not fixing it.

One to hammer in is that you cannot know as a parent how far the ethos of a school is integrated in the everyday life and curriculum from a school.

You cannot make an informed decision because the, by law, dont have to do this.

Yes but this is specifically about what the Minister can do regarding enrolment in over subscribed schools. It's only about the ethos of the school in that Catholic schools can have an admission policy that favours the kids of catholic parents (and as most of the schools are Catholic oversubscribed schools will more often than not be Catholic ones). I think that the Minster is trying to get transparency through the small parts of the legislation that he can influence. I think the points the discussion paper makes are a good work around but it's still not fixing the core problem in that the state should provide education to children and not provide for education.

My own education is based in US law, not Irish, so I can't be sure - but is it possible that this is because to make changes that already comply with the act is a fairly simple matter that he can push through with considerable ease and lack of hassle, whereas to make distinct changes would require an update of the Act itself and would take longer and be more likely to meet with dissent?

Yeah that makes sense - a bit off topic but does anyone know what catholic schools are like in other countries. Is the integrated curriculum particular to Irish catholic schools or catholic schools in general. Anyone go to a non Irish catholic school?

I attended a Catholic school in Canada, but only into Senior Kindergarten (equiv Senior Infants) and there was no religious education at that level. A look through the school's website is worth your while if you're interested in researching international Catholic schools, though. http://www.cateam.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=44&Itemid=105 (That link is directly to their Religious and Family Life section).

If you look in the FAQ, you will find that they do allow for children to be opted out of the RE/Family Life programs.

In the US, I attended secular schools, though through church I knew students who attended Catholic high schools. Religion wasn't necessarily a part of separate subjects, but liturgical days were celebrated, daily prayers were said, and theology was a required subject. It wouldn't be the type of school you would send your child to unless you were prepared for them to be quite immersed in Catholicism.

On that note, they were private preparatory schools which you didn't send your child to unless that was what you specifically wanted and were willing to pay for them to attend. Otherwise they would have attended the local public (secular) school; distance wouldn't be a factor because every area would be designated to belong to a certain district, and as long as you lived in that district, transportation was provided by the school.

So, yes, the religion was quite penetrative of the daily curriculum, but you had to go out of your way (and pay) to attend.

If we can make it happen that catholic school have to write down how far they incorporate religion etc we would have proof that it goes much further than what they state at the moment.

As it stands now the enrolment policies are believed, even while evreyone knows that they are miles apart from reallity. If schools are made to write this al down it has 3 results.

1. You can make an informed decision as parent
2. You can hold them to what they put on paper
3. It would provide proof for human rights issues

So while it only might be a small change it might have huge consequences