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 Post subject: Cloyne
New postPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:04 pm 
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There are websites and radio shows open to us now on the theme of safeguarding children from priests.

Can I ask my fellow-atheists to get stuck in with the message that getting the priests out of the schools would remove one of the biggest dangers.


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 Post subject: Re: Cloyne
New postPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:57 pm 
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+1 will do when ever I get the chance. It can not be right that a institution which allows pedophiles to stay on be in patrons of schools!

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Pope says atheists pick & choose their morals. Correct. Today I will be frowning on child abuse & not having a problem with homosexuality.


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 Post subject: Re: Cloyne
New postPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:20 am 
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Anyone hear the letter read out in masses today, was planning on going but overslept.
'probabaly the same old words' they love words.


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 Post subject: Re: Cloyne
New postPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:12 am 
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Here's a link to the Cloyne report.
http://www.irishtimes.com/indepth/cloyne/index.pdf

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 Post subject: Re: Cloyne
New postPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:16 am 
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How can we believe, without corroboration, anything that members of the Irish Catholic Hierarchy say in cases where it is in their interest to mislead us?

That is surely the central question that arises from the Cloyne Report, especially when seen alongside the previous revelation that Archbishop Desmond Connell of Dublin was happy to deliberately mislead people by a process that he described as ‘mental reservation’.

Putting aside the content of the sexual abuse allegations, which are of course shockingly serious, the Cloyne Report reveals that various permutations of the Cloyne Diocese, Bishop John Magee and Monsignor Denis O’Callaghan “positively lied” [21.79], “positively misled” [21.79], “deliberately misled” [21.91], deliberately created two different accounts of the same meeting, a true one for the Vatican and a false one for the local diocesan files [1.48], gave false assurances to the Government Minister for Children and the Health Service Executive [1.77], “tried to bury the matter” of the requirement to report “evidence of a vicious sexual assault” [16.19], advised that statements to the gardai should be “minimal” [9.84-85], failed to give its own advisory committees full information [1.36], “put out an erroneous view” about a report [1.40], produced crucial documents that were wrongly dated [12.29], held three different versions of one meeting in diocesan files [21.27], and misled people in at least 35 ways which I detail below.

Here's my overview of the Cloyne report's findings about this.


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 Post subject: Re: Cloyne
New postPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:46 pm 
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Enda Kenny stood up against the Vatican in the Dáil today. He is to be applauded.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/taoi ... z1SfVoLpbQ

Quote:
Taoiseach hits out at 'dysfunction' of Catholic Church
20/07/2011 - 14:20:49

Taoiseach Enda Kenny has told the Dáil that the Cloyne Report on clerical sex abuse "excavates the dysfunction, the disconnection, the elitism that dominates the Vatican today".

“The rape and torture of children were downplayed ... managed to uphold instead, the primacy of the institution, its power, standing and reputation,” Mr Kenny said in a special Dáil debate on today.

The Vatican’s reaction to evidence of victims was to have it parsed and analysed by a canon lawyer, the Taoiseach said.

This “calculated withering position” was “the polar opposite of the radicalism, the humility and the compassion upon which the Roman Church was founded”.

Mr Kenny said clericalism had rendered some of Ireland’s brightest and most privileged and powerful men either unwilling or unable to address the horrors in the Ryan and Murphy reports.

Mr Kenny said this Roman clericalism must be devastating for “good priests”.

“But thankfully for them, and for us, this is not Rome,” he said.

“Nor is it industrial school or Magdalene Ireland, where the swish of a soutane-smothered conscience and humanity and the swing of a thurible ruled the Irish Catholic world.

“This is the Republic of Ireland 2011.

“A republic of laws, of rights and responsibilities, of proper civic order, where the delinquency and arrogance of a particular version of a particular kind of morality will no longer be tolerated or ignored.”

The Taoiseach said he agreed with Dublin Archbishop Diarmuid Martin that the church needs to publish all similar reports as soon as possible.

Mr Kenny reiterated measures announced in the wake of the Cloyne Report’s publication, including making it an offence to withhold information about crimes against children.

“As the Holy See prepares its considered response to the Cloyne Report, as Taoiseach I am making it absolutely clear that when it comes to the protection of the children of this State, the standards of conduct which the church deems appropriate to itself cannot and will not be applied to the workings of democracy and civil society in this republic,” Mr Kenny said.

Today's Dáil motion stated that they deplore “the Vatican’s intervention, which contributed to the undermining of the child protection frameworks and guidelines of the Irish State and the Irish bishops”.

Earlier today, a senior Vatican spokesman stated that Irish bishops were never encouraged or advised to cover up clerical abuse or evade laws designed to protect children.

In the first comment from Rome amid fall-out over former bishop John Magee’s “dangerous” mishandling of paedophilia allegations, Fr Federico Lombardi dismissed criticism of the Holy See.

The inquiry into Magee’s role at the head of the Cloyne Diocese until his retirement two years ago found he misled investigations and on one occasion wrote two different reports on a clerical abuse allegation – one for Rome and one for diocesan records.

Fr Lombardi, the spokesman for the Vatican, claimed the severity of criticisms against the Holy See was curious.

The controversy goes as high as the Vatican after the inquiry found a 1997 letter from the Papal Nuncio, Rome’s ambassador to Ireland, reacting to Irish bishops’ agreed plans to improve child protection policy. The Cloyne report described the response as “entirely unhelpful”.

“There is no reason to interpret that letter as being intended to cover up cases of abuse,” Fr Lombardi said.

“Moreover, there is absolutely nothing in the letter that is an invitation to disregard the laws of the country.”

Fr Lombardi suggested the Church had done nothing worse than the Irish State as rigorous child protection rules and mandatory reporting were not in law at the time.

He added: “The severity of certain criticisms of the Vatican are curious, as if the Holy See was guilty of not having given merit under canon law to norms which a State did not consider necessary to give value under civil law.”

He also said any objections from the powerful Rome-based Congregation for the Clergy to Irish bishops in the letter were understandable and legitimate.

In the long statement read out yesterday on Vatican radio, Fr Lombardi insisted that he was not speaking on behalf of Pope Benedict.

The spokesman also rebuked the respected Cloyne inquiry – headed by Judge Yvonne Murphy following her work uncovering clerical abuse and the failures of church authorities in the Dublin Archdiocese.

Fr Lombardi said: “In attributing grave responsibility to the Holy See for what happened in Ireland, such accusations seem to go far beyond what is suggested in the report itself (which uses a more balanced tone in the attribution of responsibility) and demonstrate little awareness of what the Holy See has actually done over the years to help effectively address the problem.”

Fr Lombardi did not mention John Magee, who has issued a statement apologising but not spoken in public.

He reiterated the Pope’s “intense feelings of grief and condemnation” and his “shock and shame” following the publication of the Dublin report in 2009.


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 Post subject: Re: Cloyne
New postPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:17 pm 
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I'm no blueshirt but Kennys speech was pretty impressive, let's see if he now follows it up with actions.

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"Prayer has no place in the public schools, just like facts have no place in organized religion." Superintendent Chalmers


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 Post subject: Re: Cloyne
New postPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:32 pm 
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That was one hell of a speech!!

Bravo!!

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 Post subject: Re: Cloyne
New postPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:26 pm 
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I didn't think I'd see the likes of that from Enda.

I thought he would be another church arsekisser like that slimeball Bertie.

Fair play to Enda....will he give us our referendum now to get rid of the Blasphemy law and the god clause for President, Judges and council of state.

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 Post subject: Re: Cloyne
New postPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:51 am 
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Let's make sure that this new mood translates into support for Ruairi Quinn and the secularisation of the schools.
To date I have seen no commentators making the connection between crimes of the Catholic Church and their control of our schools.
I don't think a statement from Atheist Ireland would be helpful - in fact, it might be counter-productive - but we can individually contact papers, phone-in shows etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Cloyne
New postPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:55 pm 
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Image
http://www.irishtimes.com/cartoons/turn ... 722/22.jpg

Now: This would be a great T-shirt


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 Post subject: Re: Cloyne
New postPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:51 am 
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I thought that was one hell of a speech by the Taoiseach but I can't say I was inpressed by this stinker of a response by David Quinn of the Irish Independent: http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/david-quinn-vatican-of-today-does-not-deserve-governments-hysterical-attack-2828449.html


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 Post subject: Re: Cloyne
New postPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:23 pm 
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Another one from the IT BREDA O'BRIEN
Vatican did not try to obstruct abuse inquiry
Quote:
If we want to express anger at a church that has been disgracefully slow in responding to the crime of child abuse, let me be first in the queue. If we want to criticise a style of communication more appropriate to the 19th century than the 21st, and a chronic inability to understand that the world no longer thinks in centuries but in seconds, let’s go for it. But if we want to take a quote from a 1990 document, Instruction on the Ecclesial Vocation of the Theologian , and use it to imply that Pope Benedict thinks that the church should not co-operate with this State in the matter of reporting child abuse, leave me out.

An Taoiseach quoted Josef Ratzinger as saying: “Standards of conduct appropriate to civil society or the workings of a democracy cannot be purely and simply applied to the church.”

At that point, we have left the truth behind. That passage concerns “polling public opinion to determine the proper thing to think or do” when it comes to theology. It has nothing to do with child abuse.

I don't think see gets it, it's not just the abuse, but the disregard of Irish laws and the Irish state. These reports are no relvelation, the whole country knew whats been going on for decades, now we have proof of the facts, and if you ask me we're still on the other edges of the iceberg. It goes all the way to the top, as many ex-priests have stated in the past when they tried to highlight the abuse.

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 Post subject: Re: Cloyne
New postPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:06 pm 
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What do you expect from the likes of Breda O'Brien.She is a patron for the Iona Institute.
http://www.ionainstitute.ie/personnel_patrons.php


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 Post subject: Re: Cloyne
New postPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:13 pm 
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www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/vatican-hit ... 14138.html

"Suprise & disappointment" ?? at the reaction. What a joke.


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