Atheist Ireland Forum

I was thinking of how weddings used to involve dealing with a low-end civil servant in a tiny office and now, in Dublin at any rate, there are those two nice civil servants who have made the civil ceremony into something well - magic.

I was surprised(my foreign national ignorance again) that the changes to the marriage laws a couple of years ago did allow for licensing of civil celebrants.

Well I had a lot of that too!!

They do a lovely marriage in Limerick in a refurbished chapel attached to the hospital.
Mr Quirke, I think, presides and does an excellent job. The civil ceremony is very republican - in the French tradition - with reference to the 'laws of the Republic' and so on. Far superior to the religious mumbo-jumbo.

I've been to a wedding where the civil servant looking more at her watch, than at at the bride and groom. She flew through the ceremony and if it wasn't for the photographer to step in for a couple of photos during the signing of the marriage certificate, she would of been out the door.

An update on the situation..... my fella was questioned on when we will christen child and he put off answering the question by saying... i have'nt really thought about it yet. So he was asked again , you are going to do it aren't you, his reply the same. So he was told by his mum if its not done that there cousin who was not christened someone else in the family poured water over the babys headin the name of the father ect. Does this count ? can they do that? If i don't want my child to be Catholic someone else can't decide for me can they? The Mother in law is looking after the baby while we are on holiday in a few months time, now i dont even want to go away.
He told me what was said at the end of the day and i wanted to run down stairs and say if you ever do that to my child you will never see her again. But i didnt't. I wish i had been there at the time, i would have said i thought that doing that behide parents back would be disrespectful.
I just spent the weekend in England and had a family gathering of 30 of us. Not one person asked me about any sort of christening. They were just so happy to meet my Baby , after losing my mum last year it is something so great and wonderful to happen in my life and they are pleased for me that i have found some happyness after such sadness and loss. Why then do i have to come back to Ireland to listen to rubbish about how i should bring up my daughter? I am scared i will never be able to be myself here.
My counsellor who i saw for a year after losing my mum and knows i have no belief in God or Religion, and also knows i have been extremley upset about people putting there beliefs on to me, asked me the question... have you had the christening yet!!!!!! I felt the whole year she must have not really listened to a word i was saying. So if she doesn't undersatnd my view, of all people , how will anyone?

Flower, your fella needs to decide where he stands on this. Be aware that if he represents to his mother that you are the driving force behind this non-baptism stance, you will end up marginalised. He needs to decide whether he supports you or his mother.

To answer your main question, YES. I'm afraid it's true. Under Catholic doctrine, "emergency" baptism may be performed by anyone, man or woman, even if non-Christian, and is considered valid. For your interest, here is a link to a wiki on the tragic case of Edgardo Mortara.

In summary, he was an Italian son of Jewish parents who was secretly baptised by the parents' domestic servant during a childhood illness. This, in the eyes of the Church, made him a Catholic. Canon Law states that a Catholic cannot be raised by Jews, so they sent the state police to effectively kidnap the boy from his loving parents and had him raised him by the Church as a Catholic. The poor child was so succesfully indoctrinated that he ended up as an ordained Catholic priest. He died on his own in an abbey in Belgium in 1940.

I have to say, the though of a relative taking it upon themselves to baptise a child is not a new one to me, and it certainly bothers me on the basis of principle.

However, it does really depend on whether they're going to splash a bit of water on the child, or if they're going to splash a bit of water on the child and then tell the church about it.

As disrespectful and infuriating as it is to go behind your back, giving the child a bath while repeating meaningless nonsense is only symbolic and will affect her physically or mentally in the slightest. If they try to register the baptism officially, that's more disconcerting to me, though it still won't affect her in any way.

To me the bigger problem is this: if they're willing to do this behind your back, what is it going to be like as she grows older? When she asks questions about life and the world, are they going to give her Catholic answers? From what I can tell, it seems unlikely that they will respect you and leave this sort of thing to you and your boyfriend. And if they start giving her religious instruction, that will affect her much more strongly than a bit of water on the top of her head.

It's an issue that needs to be solved now; your boyfriend needs to realise how much trouble this is going to cause, how much confusion and distress your daughter will be facing in the future, and a decision needs to be made. If it were myself, I wouldn't trust his family with her without my supervision. I would seriously look into alternative options so you don't find yourself leaving her in their care, and I would even consider moving back to England with your boyfriend and your daughter if it were at all possible.

+1

This is why my wife and I have never left our son alone with my family, and why we can't see ourselves ever moving back to Ireland.

Plus I don't see why my son should have to waste his intellect trying to get to grips with a pointless dead language...

Flower, a useful documentary here, originally shown on the BBC, by atheist biblical scholar Francesca Stavrakopoulou, which explains where Catholic Baptism comes from, and compares it to the original Adam & Eve story (i.e. original sin). You could show it to your other half to help him understand why baptism is nonsense:

The Real Garden of Eden

Oh he does know the Catholic Church is a load of nonsense he calls it, just didn't want to upset his family. He says that the church was beated into them. We have both agreed to not bring our child up RC no questions about that, but he just wont be honest and tell them that which isn't fair on me. I see the inlaws say every 2 to 3 weeks, sometimes only once a month so thats a plus they live 3 hours ish away. He is also aware that people have been brain washed when growing up into RC. I asked him if i could try and explain to his parents how i feel so they understand and he said they will never understand.
We have agreed on a naming ceremony which for him I know is a option which he wont go without. It wont mean my child is any religion, people have naming ceremonys all the time, mainly for this reason of keeping family happy i think. Well i will make it a nice day for my daughter , the best i can do for her, and i think that she will have a lot of respect for me when she is a adult that i didnt christen her RC and leave the option open for her to believe in what she wants and find her own way. In fact when she is an adult if she did decide to follow a religion that would be fine by me, as long as she is happy, she is a free spirit and will find her own way. Of course she will be well educated to on how we really got here!!!!!!!!
So if i didnt do any ceremony for my child for sure i feel would have water poured over her head behid my back, and i know it might sound like i am weak not saying anything to them as yet, but the next time this conversation is brought up i will be letting people in his family know for sure that if any of them do this without my consent they will never be left with my daughter again. Up till now my boyfriend has told me not to say anything but from now on i will be letting people know how i feel.
Moving back to England? Its not really a option at the moment. But if i knew when i got pregnant what was a ahead of me i would have moved back there first. In Jan me and fella getting married abroad. I have no other option but to leave child with inlaws or not get married. If we hadnt paid for it already i wouldnt be leaving her. I think before i go i will make it clear i dont want emergancy christening behid my back. I have to be very careful not to loss my temper around them because this will be used against me and i will be the bad one then.
I have also said to other half just tell them its my fault i dont want to bring her up RC , but he wont he doesnt want them not to like me! but at same time wont tell them it is both of ours choice.
Seriously what i load of rubbish i am having to deal with, my friends at home would be like... tell them where to shuv thier religion!!!!
This is a place where i can come to and let it all out, if i didnt i would be going crazy by now!!!!!!

I was the same as you Flower. I felt really isolated and this forum kept me sane. But through the years I met more and more people who don't believe in religion or the RC at all.

We live here in the North West and most people are the same as your man, they really don't want to rock the boat. "Just put up with it" they tell me all the time. Well just like you I am not. I don't see why I have to keep my opinions to myself if I get the RC religion pushed in my face all the time.

I hope your man will be brave enough one day to confront his family.

Flower, have you thought about contacting/attending CorkHumanists.com? you might meet like minded people from the Macroom area, who have gone through the same problems, also they are setting up a forum.

In the first meeting there was a discussion on non-religious ceremonies.

Ultimately it all boils down to the fact that most Irish men & women are scared shitless of their mammies....

Thanks for that i joined the Humanist website, shame i just missed the launch meeting last week i am gutted!!! but guess in England so wouldn't have made it. Have asked for details of next meeting will defo attend!!! Cheers I really need support from like minded people.