Atheist Ireland Forum

Was at a quite disturbing meeting at my kids’ (primary) school last night. I went along thinking it was about an initiative aimed at getting the kids in the school doing more music, sport, drama, art etc., basically with the aim (in my head) that they get a chance to shine at more than the books. The school they go to is ostensibly catholic but my kids (and plenty of others) are opted out of all religious stuff, no fuss has ever been made and in fact some of the teachers have been quite (though quietly) supportive of this. They generally draw pictures or read books while the rest of them do "god stuff" - the other kids want to be atheists too.

So anyway the meeting turned out to be some kind of rallying call to defend the school against government plans to wrench schools out of the control of religious groups, which initially had me worried until it turned out that the way they plan to do this is by forming a parents prayer group more or less. One fella did beat the table a few times as he got worked up about how he wanted his kid’s indoctrination to be outsourced to the school, but he calmed down at the thoughts of having an oul pray. So while I left the thing happy that nothing would actually change (though annoyed that I’d lost 90 minutes of my life when I could have been off, I don’t know, doing the dark lord’s bidding or some such) I was quite annoyed at myself.

This was because I kept my trap shut from the first minute when the actual point of the meeting was revealed…I wanted to say something – quite a lot in fact - but I held back because my kid’s teacher was there, and one of his friend’s fathers, and it turns out they’re pretty damn holy. My young fella is pretty shy, so I’m not keen to jeopardise any of his friendships (his friend himself obviously isn’t a nutter, he appears to worship only footballers). But now I’m flip-flopping between thinking I did the right thing and then wishing I’d had the courage that some other posters on here have shown (Tulip to name but one) and told them what I really thought, despite the consequences.

It has disturbed me a lot…I never considered taking my kids out of that school before now, but its definitely in my head now. Anyway, did I do the right thing? Should I go back to the next meeting and state my case?

That is a very difficult one. Are there more parents that are not religious? If so I would try and do it as a group.

I didn't get any of the others with me even though they agreed with me. What I do know is that the shouting religious ones are getting their way because nobody says anything and many parents assume that most people agree.

A few more questions:

Do you live rural and is there a ET school nearby enough you could fall back on?

How old is your child?

My son (5 then) made new friends instantly when we moved him to an ET school. He is much more confident and happy there then he was ever before. He blamed us for a few months for moving him to a new school but it was the best thing we ever did.

I heard from another person recently that this type of thing is happening. This person said that she felt intimidated at the meeting and is not really sure what to do about the situation. When she did speak up she was shocked at the reaction.

Is it not strange that the Forum on Patronage and Pluralism was set up to sort out the issues to ensure that minorities are not discriminated against and the process is actually putting those minorities under more pressure.

Maybe we should write to these schools and point out the human rights issues? I felt very alone at first when I started against the school but with the support of AI and you Marks I felt a lot stronger.

Many people feel (and I did too) that they hold your children for ransom. Maybe if we write out of name of AI and say it has been brought to our attention by parents at the school, it would get that pressure of people. Also the school might change their attitude when they know their behaviour is know out side the school.

Just an idea.

I would not mind to put time in that.

I have found that keeping quiet only makes things worse as eventually you will be backed into such a position that you have to speak up and then you may appear insincere or shifty. Much better to say, frankly and clearly, that you do not subscribe to any religion and are rearing your children accordingly. I admit that I tactically avoid the word 'atheist' and say things like 'we are not religious' or 'we don't subscribe to any religion' or 'we are not members of any church'.
If you do this, you put the ball firmly on the other side of the court (tennis metaphor) and you will probably find that the zealots and the reasonables split as they are now faced, not with an invisible enemy - some Minister up in Dublin or some godless hordes in RTE - but with that nice man who always turns up for school activities.
I recall from my childhood brain-washing days a phrase that we were supposed to 'profess our faith openly'. Not bad advice.
I think we (AI) should gather information on how many of these meetings are being organised and by whom. If it is a backlash by the CC or some pressure group, then it needs to be brought to the attention of the Minister and highlighted in the press. Personally, I haven't heard of any other meetings.

Harry,
Don't beat yourself up about not saying anything. You were taken by surprise and didn't have time to plan a reaction. It can't be helped. And if you're not sure what to say, remaining silent may be the best option.
However, now you have time to plan what to do, and keeping silent means handing over more power to people who want to spend your money indoctrinating your child in their religion.
If there's another meeting, I would advise politely raising your concerns - and raise them as concerns, not objections. Praise the teachers for their support in opting your child out so far, express your desire that in modern Ireland, your child would not have to be discriminated against in school, and suggest ways that everybody's concerns can be dealt with (e.g. an optional religion class at the end of the day).
You will be met with objections. You need to politely and respectfully deflect them.
e.g. "This is a Catholic country". "With respect, a country cannot be Catholic, only people can be Catholic, and I am not. Neither is my child."
"It's the right of every Catholic parent to have their children raised Catholic". "Absolutely, and it's my right to not have my children raised Catholic. At the moment, the school is making that very difficult for me"
Figure out what people are likely to say and what your response should be. Talk to Tulip1 as he's been through it, and Marks as she understands the law on this issue.
Don't point fingers, don't criticise their religion and don't raise your voice.
But please, for the sake of your children, and mine, don't keep quiet any longer.

If you wish any support from me pm me and I will give you my contact details. Marks is much better than me for the legal side of things but I could lend some support. I don't mind helping with writing letters etc.

If you don’t speak of your concerns then twenty or thirty years down the road your kid will be going through all of this again with their children. best of luck.

Folks, thanks for all the feedback on this...it has been on my mind. I met another parent who was at the meeting in the corridor the other day, she started off with "That was a great meeting the other night, wasn't it?", I got as far as "Weeeellll, actually, I kinda thought that it..." before one of my kids appeared with a painting to show me. Priorities. "Listen, sure I'll talk to you again about it..."

I know that there are plenty of other non-religious parents there, both of the 'active' non-believer (i.e. don't go to mass, opt the kids out of religious activity - a few) and the 'passive' (non-believers but let the kids join in prayers, communion etc. - lots) but how many of them would stand up if the time came I don't know. Probably not many. I've spoken to a few of them, some of them were surprised that you could opt kids out, and almost all had had their kids christened for fear that they couldn't get into school otherwise.

There's an ET school not far away, when the eldest was due to start we heard awful stories about the academic standards or lack thereof at it, so decided against it. Have since heard that its actually fine. My eldest (9) is pretty shy, has awful trouble with even minor changes in routine, and has a good core group of friends in his class so changing is a last resort. The other lad's a joker and he'd bounce into it, but his bro would never forgive me.

I don't think I need to go down a legal route yet, but I appreciate the offer Tulip and will get in touch should it come up again. Feardorcha makes a good point about people (hopefully) being more reasonable if they hear stuff they don't like coming from someone that turns up for all the parent activities - the only reason I was asked to go to the meeting was that either myself or my wife are at every bloody thing that happens in there (bar the tea-making for the communion).

I did get the impression that a wider attempt was being made to drum up support for keeping the school patronage situation unchanged. Its something worth keeping an eye on, there are a lot of people who will just go with the flow and if they think there's no option but to support the status quo then they will, but if they see reasonable people opposing it they might join in.

Just thinking that maybe I should keep going along as a secret agent? "The name's O'Criosna - Harry O'Criosna...I like my altar wine shaken, not stirred..."

How is that different from 'just going with the flow'?

Well I was only joking really

Right so! Let's know if they follow up with a newsletter or some such thing. I can't see those zealots letting it slide.

They said they'd issue something to all parents so should anything appear in the schoolbags (other than mould on last week's sandwiches) I'll post it up...