Atheist Ireland Forum

I think this is great and long overdue...

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0501/1224315408779.html

23% of marriages in 2006 were non-religious. This must be up again by now. This is all the more significant because at present you can't have a civil ceremony on a Saturday as state registrars only work Monday to Friday. How many more would there have been had people been allowed to have a civil ceremony on a Saturday?

I think credit is due to Ivana Bacik over this. She got some stick over the silence in the Seanad malarky. I for one will be e-mailing her to congratulate her on her efforts on this.

Of course it hasn't passed yet and must make it through the Dail, however I doubt Joan Burton would introduce legislation she thought she didn't have the votes for.

I'm still don't know why only organisations can obtain the privilege to solemnise marriages.

Civil marriages in 2008 was 24%. Can't find anything more up to date than that.

Well it's pretty big step in the right direction. As it stands only a member of a religious body may celebrate marriages which is defined as:



Once this is passed, it will no longer only be religious bodies who can marry people. I have to say I'm happy with this change and I suspect civil ceremonies will increase given that they will now be able to happen on a Saturday. I can imagine some people would be put off by separating the legal ceremony with the party. Now it can all be done on the same day on a Saturday if people wish.

I was married by a civil servant in Limerick and, as far as I know, the only organisation to which he belonged was his trade union.

Yes, sorry, I left out the first bit of the sentence,



Meaning your civil servant must be a registrar from the HSE. Were you married on a Saturday?

I've e-mailed Ivana to thank her for her work on this. Her e-mail address for those interested is

ivana.bacik@oireachtas.ie

It's easier to have a go when we don't like things. I e-mailed her about my dislike of the silence in the Seanad and felt it only right to e-mail my approval to her now on this issue.

I can't remember; I'd have to ask the other contracting party.

On the larger issue, surely we should leave it to the state to register marriages. There is no demand for organisations to become registrars of deaths or births (unless I'm greatly mistaken).

brilliant
-gonna steal that one

We already have that as far as I understand it. For civil ceremonies we have HSE registrars (who don't work on a Saturday) and religious bodies. The religious body (i.e. the priest) is serving two functions. He's marrying people in the church in a religious ceremony and he is separately registering the marriage on behalf of the state as a registrar.

In any religious weddings I have been at there have been two separate things happening. The exchange of vows is the religious element and separately the register is signed by the couple and their witnesses in front of the priest. I could be wrong, but if the second part is not done, the couple may be married in the eyes of the religious organisation but not in the eyes of the state. For example, in the case of a Catholic marriage where one of the couple has had their first amrriage annulled, the state doesn't recognise the marriage and so no registration would take place.

I wouldn't begrudge anyone wanting to have a religious ceremony and be able to do the legal/ state bit at the same time. Nor do I have a problem with priests being allowed to carry out this function on behalf of the state. It has no effect on my life, nor does it on anyone who doesn't want a religious ceremony.

This Bill allows people to have a non-religious/ humanist ceremony and not do the legal bit sepearately to have it recognised by the state. It also now allows people to get married on a Saturday and do it all together as religious ceremonies can.

I e-mailed Ivana Bacik and she replied attaching the notes on the Bill. I tried to attach it but I'm not allowed.

Amazingly in it she says the following:



This is way up from 24% in 2008 and is all the more astonishing given that you can't have a civil ceremony on a Saturday. The introduction of this Bill will almost certainly increase these figures again.

I second that. And that's what religious people need to recognise, it's about giving everyone the same opportunity rather than an attack on religion or tradition.

Also, aren't the registration of deaths and births done by the state anyway? It's not as if the registration of a death is done in the church after the funeral or the registration of a birth done in a church after a christening, so why would there be a need for an organisation to become registrar of deaths and births?

To call for priests to no longer be allowed to register a marriage and insist that they're all registered by a HSE registrar is excessive in my opinion. But maybe that's not what you're calling for?

I'm wasn't calling for anything. I was just musing on why a non-religious organisation should get involved in the registration of marriages. Is there an element that because religions do it, we should do it too? Should AI get in on the act now as well as the HAI?
By the way, the state ceremony is very nice and moving (well I cried a little). There's some stuff about the republic or the state that was very French. I should have paid more attention.

I don't think we should get in on the act because for the most part we're a lobby group. I can't speak for HAI as I'm not a member, but they seem to do more than lobbying and have several ceremonies for people looking for a non-religious version of traditional ceremonies such as naming ceremonies, funerals and weddings. Given that they're already providing wedding ceremonies, given that civil ceremonies currently can't be done on a Saturday, I think it's a good idea that they apply to be official registrars. I suspect it will result in an increase in the numbers choosing a Non-religious ceremony. The more that do this, the better it is for us as more and more people will become aware that there are more than just a handful non-catholic people in Ireland.