Atheist Ireland Forum

Do you know what an ABS is? A CDO? A CDS? You have not to know it but if you want to know you'll find it in the Internet. What you may be not told is that these are the instrument of crime, who's victims you might be.
It is as follows: Investment bankers and hedgefonds bundled credits, good and bad credits, healthy ones and bad loans such as mortgages, credit cards debts, student credits, financing of enterprises to new securities, the so called: ABS=Asset Backed Securities and CDP's= Collateralized Debt Obligations and sold them to stupid people. At the same time, while the sales were on, the bankers placed bets ( CDS= credit default swaps) on the payment default, because they knew that they were foul and made a nice profit. They could harvest in a fine profit twice. The winners of this dirty game are approx 10 big banks which share 90 % of this trade with a volume of 200 billion Dollars.
Another question; Are you aware of the fact that you are paying tax with every purchase of pampers, scissors or coffemachines? The speculators and foreign exchange dealers with a daily turnover of 2 billion (2 000 000 000 000 ) US Dollars are not paying a cent of tax.
Europe is saving to pay into a barrel without bottom, to deprive the people of their savings and livelihood, the saving will lead us into further recession with loss of jobs, at the end we are all bankrupt and our countries and future is handed over to the international financial market.
The world is influenced by money and greed and avarice. And who is suffering? The bankers? The developers? The speculators? Are they put to justice? No.
Therefore I vote NO, the financial treaty will only lead us into more dependence and misery. FGand Labour should stop brainwashing the people and to tell them what they have to vote. That is not democracy.

I vote yes cause if you want people to give you stuff you've got to pay for stuff.

The church brainwashed the people and told them what to do. The church is denying women their rights, the pope is not better than the mullahs in Iran and other muslim countries who deny women the human rights, they are not better than the ultraorthodox jews who deny women to sit in a bus whereever they want or to pray together with their husbands at the Western Wall, they refuse to listen to female singers, what a world...our so called politicians are no better
, an arrogant Enda and a dumb Gilmore blowing the same horn, not realizing that they have no power even in this small country and only have to jump when the others are wistling. They had not even the courage to put those bankers and developers to justice but they ask us to pay for the mess they and FF created. If atheists in Ireland are as obidient as the catholics, then good night...

What's the alternative Irishshamon? You're right that the bankers misdeeds have us in the situation we're in. You're right that they should be brought to justice. However, how by voting no will the bankers suddenly get their commupence?

If we vote no and require a 2nd bailout we can't go back to the Troika. Some may say this is a good thing. But if we can't go back to the bond market once this bailout term runs out, or if we can but subsequently run into further trouble again we won't be able to get a 2nd bailout. Our politicians are saying we won't need a 2nd bailout. Do you believe them?

Without the option of applying for a 2nd bailout we'll rely on ourselves. We'll have to run the country from what we take in. If you think the austerity has been bad to date, what happens if we have to keep a balanced budget to keep afloat?

There will be mass redundancies in the public sector for a start alongside massive cuts accross the board.

The SF/ ULA idea of a wealth tax just doesn't wash. Rich people don't pay tax. It's incredibly unfair, but that's just the way it is. We could try to introduce measures to stop this, but they'll just get around it. The more money you have the more and more ways there are to avoid paying tax through offshore trusts and the like, over which we have absolutly no control. We can't for example tell Cyprus to stop allowing people to have tax free off shore trusts there, where many many rich Irish people currently hold vasts amount of money. If a wealth tax was introduced, the little amount of wealth currently held in Ireland would vanish overnight. There would be no wealth left to tax.

The multinationals would likely start to look elsewhere if we started to go down the swaney which would result in further job losses.

I'm voting yes.

I'm voting No the first time and then when they negotiate a better deal, I'll have another think about it.

I'm disappointed they've gone ahead with the Vote before the Treaty was renegotiated (as Hollande has suggested). They should have listened to Shane Ross.

I was thinking of spoiling my vote, but not sure if that's a good option.

I honestly don't get the point of deliberately spoiling your vote. They don't differentiate between someone who writes them an essay and attaches it to the ballot and someone who accidentally ticks both boxes or scribbles somewhere on the ballot paper. They'll all simply counted as 'spoiled' and not counted.

I think most people that spoil their vote do it as a means to protest. However, as you said, due to the way the counters don't differentiate spoiled votes in anyway, the vote is effectively wasted and you may as well have stayed at home. I guess the hope is that if enough people spoil their vote such that the count results in an unprecedented number of spoiled votes it may be inferred that the voters were dissatisfied with the vote.

I don't want to derail this thread so coming back to this particular Referendum I feel that we have been put in an awkward situation. The Yes vote could have been for something much more favourable if the Fiscal Treaty is renegotiated/restructured towards growth as Hollande seems to favour. Voting No makes us look bad, again, and could put us in a tricky situation as Beebub outlined above.

It seems they will not hold a second referendum. To me, it looks like they've set it up for a mess, either way. I have never spoiled a vote and in this case I don't think it would make any impact. I'm regrettably leaning towards a Yes vote.

WoW! I got deja vu just then!

It'll be a no vote from me and I'll vote no again in a couple of months time.

If we vote no they will have a second referendum. It's what they do because they want to tell us we voted wrong.
I'm voting no this time, and if there's a next time, hope it has a better deal.

QUOTE Radio Kerry: 19 May 2012
Health Minister says referendum yes vote will give comfort to investors
The Health Minister says a yes vote in the fiscal treaty referendum will give great comfort to those seeking to invest in Ireland. Minister James Reilly believes the country is starting to recover. ................................... UNQUOTE

We are in SERIOUS TROUBLE if the Health Minister tells us how to vote.
We are urged to vote yes to the stability treaty so that we may be in a position to avail of further "bailout" money from Europe. Bailout for the rotten banks of course not for us.
If, as the treaty insists, we are to live within our means, why should we need to borrow money from anyone? Is there not a contradiction here?
Instead to reduce our debts we will face more debts, which we, not the banks or FG or Labour, will have to pay, it is the Irish citizen and the following generations.

I am in serious doubt that FG and Labour politicians know what they are talking about. I had here canvassers at the door who wanted to convince me to vote yes. Having studied national economics I asked a couple of questions. The reaction was revealing, they had not the slightest idea, only repeating the same rubbish they are told like a prayermill.

Do you know what an ABS is? A CDO? A CDS? You have not to know it but if you want to know you'll find it in the Internet. What you may be not told is that these are the instrument of crime, who's victims you might be.
It is as follows: Investment bankers and hedgefonds bundled credits, good and bad credits, healthy ones and bad loans such as mortgages, credit cards debts, student credits, financing of enterprises to new securities, the so called: ABS=Asset Backed Securities and CDP's= Collateralized Debt Obligations and sold them to stupid people. At the same time, while the sales were on, the bankers placed bets ( CDS= credit default swaps) on the payment default, because they knew that they were foul and made a nice profit. They could harvest in a fine profit twice. The winners of this dirty game are approx 10 big banks which share 90 % of this trade with a volume of 200 billion Dollars.
Another question; Are you aware of the fact that you are paying tax with every purchase of pampers, scissors or coffemachines? The speculators and foreign exchange dealers with a daily turnover of 2 billion (2 000 000 000 000 ) US Dollars are not paying a cent of tax.
Europe is saving to pay into a barrel without bottom, to deprive the people of their savings and livelihood, the saving will lead us into further recession with loss of jobs, at the end we are all bankrupt and our countries and future is handed over to the international financial market.
The world is influenced by money and greed and avarice. And who is suffering? The bankers? The developers? The speculators? Are they put to justice? No.

Therefore I vote NO, the financial treaty will only lead us into more dependence and misery. FG and Labour should stop brainwashing the people and to tell them what they have to vote. That is not democracy.

QUOTE Radio Kerry: 19 May 2012
Health Minister says referendum yes vote will give comfort to investors
The Health Minister says a yes vote in the fiscal treaty referendum will give great comfort to those seeking to invest in Ireland. Minister James Reilly believes the country is starting to recover. ....
He says he has recently been approached by two groups interested in investing in primary care facilities in this country. He says this is a sign of green shoots in our economy and ratifying the fiscal treaty is crucial. UNQUOTE

We are in SERIOUS TROUBLE if the Health Minister tells us how to vote.
We are urged to vote yes to the stability treaty so that we may be in a position to avail of further "bailout" money from Europe. Bailout for the rotten banks of course not for us.
If, as the treaty insists, we are to live within our means, why should we need to borrow money from anyone? Is there not a contradiction here?
Instead to reduce our debts we will face more debts, which we, not the banks or FG or Labour, will have to pay, it is the Irish citizen and the following generations.

The British told the Irish what to do and threatend innocent people
The Church told the Irish what to do and threatens with the fire of hell
Kenny and Noonan not only tell us what to do they threaten us as well with a budget

NO is the answer when I vote

McKinsey estimates that the private debt of 4.6 million Irish amounts to approx 190 billion Euros. Placed in relation to income, their debt is higher than that of Spain , twice as high as in Greece and almost three times as high as in Italy.

Ireland will NEVER get out of their debts, with or without fiscal union, but is extremely depending on economic growth in the Euro zone and that France and Germany are not facing a new recession.
Sure, Germany is suffering, if the export is going down - but Ireland is incredibly deep in the s.....t.

In 2011, the deficit was approx. 10 percent. Therefore the budget gap in Ireland is bigger than in other crisis countries such as Greece, Portugal, Spain and Italy.
A yes vote would bring us nothing only more debts and an economic collapse, a NO vote would bring the message over to the ignoramuses in the government and to the financial circles in Europe