the problem of Heaven

General discussions
Joined:Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:52 pm
the problem of Heaven

Post by skepticgriggsy » Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:19 pm

If in Heaven we can have free will, be moral agents and still not be robots, why not here in the first place.Contray to John Hick in his all or nothng fallacy to buttress his strawman that we naturalists seek paradise, we maintain that just some wrong doing suffices to contrast with the good: what we have now is pointless evils.
This is what Michael Martin and Graham Oppy call the problem of Heaven , which heretofore I called the definitive refutation of free will as theodicy.
To quote philospoher Oppy"f the absence of temptation and the presence of divinity are not incompatible with the existence of significant freedom, then what explanation is to be given of the presence of temptation and the absence ff divinity in te earthly existence of free human agents? Given theise problems, it does not seem plausible to suppose that one cna appeal to the nature of the heavenly enviornment in order to explain the contingent absence of evil from heaven."
"Given that it is a contingent matter whether there is evil in heaven,what reason do we have for believing that life in heaven is any way better than life one earth?'
And John Loftus notes in his "Why I rejectected Christianity..." that if one allows for the story of Lucifer's rebelling, then expect divine explulsions!
Without begging the question and special pleading, here theists must meet this challenge. It is not inclumbent to embrace atheism as Oppy notes but to note the challenge. :D
Joined:Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:52 pm

Post by skepticgriggsy » Sat Jan 19, 2008 9:28 pm

And theists should show there is Heaven. One begs the question in assuming souls. Just more obscurantism. :roll:
Joined:Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:52 pm

Post by skepticgriggsy » Sat Jan 19, 2008 9:30 pm

Theists beg the question of souls. How can they assert Heaven? I t would have to be a part of Existence, so where is it?
Joined:Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:57 pm
Location:New Zealand

Post by inedifix » Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:46 pm

Excuse my layman's ignorance - but is there any chance you could phrase your question a little lower down the brow? I don't quite get it.

I am interested however... though possibly more with the problem of free will than the problem of heaven.

Joined:Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:13 pm

Heaven....................good grief!

Post by celticchimp » Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:54 pm

Ah Heaven, one of the particularly juvenile concepts religion has been kind enough to grace us with.

I think most theists, well modern theist anyway, would argue that life is a nessesary learning experience that we must go through in order to redeem ourselves. Remember that Eden was essentially Heaven on Earth. Everything was rosy in the garden, until women came along. Fecken women always causing trouble. If only there had been a shoe shop in the Garden.... :wink: It was Adam and Eve's sin that caused the fall of man, bringing death and all the other bad stuff into the world and getting the two hapless lovers tossed out of the Garden. That sin has somehow tainted us all. I think it may have been the Summa Theologiae which suggested that semen was actually the means of transmitting original sin. Anyway, this might be the theologians answer to Oppy. Also, I don't see any reason why having free will should eliminate temptation?, in other words, I don't see why the presence of temptation requires an explanation. The obvious one would be that temptation is an unavoidable side-effect of free will in an envionment that permits the possiblitly of doing something wrong. Also, I'm sure to most believers there is not an absence of divinity in the earthly existence. It's just us dumbass atheists who can't see it!

Still, once we get to Heaven I'm sure we are blessed by God's infinite grace to the effect that we simply would not desire to do evil. Incapable of it by virtue of the lord Gods presence. That's why there is no evil in heaven......God sake it's pretty obvious when you think about it![sarcasm]

I'm speaking for myself here, but Heaven in my mind is nothing but a sea of curious lesbians with no inhibitions but I'm sure God would not approve of that. - some heaven I scoff!!!!! If it is not that, then it's not Heaven dammit. QED heaven does not exist!

Even the concept of eternity is kind of ridiculous. If you really consider an eternal existance it starts to seem more like the ultimate punishment than the ultimate reward (assuming the lesbian thing is not likely to happen)

we maintain that just some wrong doing suffices to contrast with the good

I'm not sure any evil is nessesary to contrast with good - perhaps nessesary to give meaning to the terms - but a state of constant goodness is mentally concievable. If such a state were to exist there would be no need of the terms and the concepts of morality, goodness, altrusim would be meaningless and simply unthought of. Much in the way that the imaginary concept of inness is unthought of as the opposite of the similarly imaginary outness because these ideas hold no real meaning even if we are all -unknowingly- experiecing inness right now. I realise that I might well have missed the point here. If so, please set me straight.

Whenever questions like, where exactly is Heaven? or where exactly was God when he created the universe? are asked, the theist usually responds by resorting to one of the omni-copouts. God exists outside of the universe. I know, I know, makes you want to bite your own tongue off in frustration. That and 'Higher Truth', 'Different Truth' or the one I am debating at the moment 'Religous Language'. I've just been accused of aspect blindness (Wittgenstein) because I told the Theist his comments weren't making any sense.

Being Atheist is definately not good for your blood pressure.

On a personal note, I think God's choice of using a spinning burning sword to keep Adam and Eve out of the Garden was awfully low tech. I think if the bible said something more like the following there would be many more believers in the world today.

'and the lord God in his wrath placed an AI controlled, liquid nitrogen cooled, multibarreled, rail gun before the garden which turned everywhich way on a gyroscopically balanced nuclear powered platform.......'
Joined:Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:23 pm

Heaven and the evolution problem

Post by munsterdevil » Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:02 pm

My problem with heaven delusion is that for example, when did the Christian Judeo 'God' actually start letting 'souls' into heaven? Even for people who believe that evolution and Religion are compatible this raises a serious question. I mean when 'God' was supposedly overseeing the evolution of humans when did he suddenly decide to say 'Okay St. Peter I think they have evolved enough now, you may as well open the gates to the joint'. Wouldn't this be a trifle bit unfair to the Homo-whatever (this part of science is not my strong point!) who preceeded Homo-sapien.

I mean there is no actual exact point in an evolution of any species where they go from being a to b in a matter of seconds, minutes etc., as it's a gradual process. One could argue to a theist where did the neantherdals go? Limbo, Heaven or just dust. I think this is a question that many peolple who believe that evolution and Religion are compatible would struggle to answer.
Joined:Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:52 pm

Post by fintanruth » Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:47 pm

I am currently reading a book called Ether, God and Devil. Basically these words are just memes that have become part of the human thought process. I wondered why he used the word ether instead of heaven. I assume because it is an older word.

Heaven :- the sky, firmament or space surrounding the earth
Heaven :- the abode of God and the angels
Heaven :- a place or state of communion with God after death
Heaven :- (in any of various mythologies) a place, such as Elysium or Valhalla, to which those who have died in the gods' favour are brought to dwell in happiness

Ether : - (Greek myth) the upper regions of the atmosphere; clear sky or heaven

It is clear from the dictionary that the word heaven or ether had a much clearer meaning than it does today.

Iwonder what would be the answer if you asked a theist where is Heaven today?

Joined:Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:13 pm

Where is heaven?

Post by celticchimp » Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:17 pm

Tut tut tut Fintan, don't you know anything. Heaven is up. :)
Joined:Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:52 pm

Post by fintanruth » Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:11 am

I don’t know if you got my point “celticchimp” I’m sixty years of age and if I think back forty years ago most people in Ireland would have believed in heaven, hell, purgatory, limbo, the infallibility of the Pope and the clergy don’t have sex with little boys.

Everything evolves including religion, most of what was believed forty years ago is now gone, but heaven is still believed in. I see this every time I go to a funeral; the priest always says the person has gone to heaven, they never mention hell, purgatory or limbo.

My point was while most people in Ireland still believe in God everything else has become somewhat vague.

I have been a non believer in God for as long as I can remember and in my beliefs, I always felt I was on my own.

I asked my father (who was a wonderful man) on his deathbed in 1985 in the last stages of cancer, where do you believe you are going? He responded, (getting agitated) what do you mean? I said well do you believe you are about to go to heaven to meet God and all his angels with fluffy wings playing flutes. Angrily he replied “how the hell do I know what I believe in”

I have only fond memories of my father.

User avatar
Joined:Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:48 pm

Post by mkaobrih » Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:37 am

Even if there was a heaven – I can’t think of a place that I’d lease like to be in.
It would be so fucking boring and full of Jesus freaks that I prefer to be in hell.
In fact my hell would be to live forever. Short and sweet that’s how it should be and move on for the next generation.
Post Reply