Sexist Question - De Wimmin and De Religion

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Ygern
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Re: Sexist Question - De Wimmin and De Religion

Post by Ygern » Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:50 pm

@ Hobbes
Don't try and back-pedal out of what you said. Your argument, no matter what language you try to couch it in, is that women are somehow lesser than men.

As for your lame attempt at trying to claim ad hominem (please note spelling for future reference), apart from being a bit rich coming from you; is also flawed. I said your views were that of a bigot; rather than you being one.

The policy here is also not to limit what people say. In your case I am willing to make an exception, seeing as every thread you enter derails into a nonsensical slagging match.

@ Dev

Hitchens wasn't completely clear in the way he said it, but he was referring to why more women seemed to stay in religions than men. By "mainstay" he was referring to the fact that churches tend to be filled with women supplicants, even though they are often in positions of oppression. He made a reference to mosques in Saudi Arabis (at the end of your quote) which were often filled with women - at least in the women's section, despite the denigrated position that extreme Salafi interpretation of Sunni Islam practised there has put them in. He referred to it as a hideous joke at their expense.
The universe is huge and old, and rare things happen all the time ~ Lawrence Krauss
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anadub25
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Re: Sexist Question - De Wimmin and De Religion

Post by anadub25 » Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:58 pm

Hobbesian World View wrote: You can train females to carry out repetitive tasks, but theyre not capable of innovation, invention or creativity. Even in industries where women predominate, men still do most of the creative, strategic, or system level thinking.
There's a difference between sex and gender. Many work environments are still predominantly managed and directed by men not because of some bio-evolutionarily predetermined trait but because of arbitrary social biases which define gender expectations.
As for women being incapable of 'innovation, invention and creativity' either you are trying to provoke a boring, stereotypical, done-to-death battle of the sexes here or you are willfully ignorant of the many illustrations of female innovation, invention and creativity available to you.
"Religion is comparable to a childhood neurosis."

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Tulip1
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Re: Sexist Question - De Wimmin and De Religion

Post by Tulip1 » Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:26 pm

I think woman are more likely to keep a religion because most woman I know want to keep the peace and a family as a whole unit. Man are more risk taking and confrotational.
Pope says atheists pick & choose their morals. Correct. Today I will be frowning on child abuse & not having a problem with homosexuality.
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mkaobrih
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Re: Sexist Question - De Wimmin and De Religion

Post by mkaobrih » Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:27 pm

You know I fucking hate all argumentative threads - I avoid them like the plague - Life’s short and then you’re dead - Why waste time arguing. I haven’t read all of this thread and I don’t want to. My two cents are that women and men are different and complementary.
The church complains of persecution when it's not allowed to persecute.
Beebub
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Re: Sexist Question - De Wimmin and De Religion

Post by Beebub » Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:33 am

You know I fucking hate all argumentative threads -
Best to just put Hobbsey on ignore then :lol:
Ygern
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Re: Sexist Question - De Wimmin and De Religion

Post by Ygern » Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:40 am

Hobbes won't be re-joining us.

Back to the original post, I don't think that the original question was in any way sexist. It is a question worth asking as fewer women feel comfortable leaving their religion, let alone publicly "outing" themselves. I think the numbers are improving, as they are for both genders.

The "quasi Stockholm Syndrome" response of Matthew Chapman is the best answer I have heard so far.
The universe is huge and old, and rare things happen all the time ~ Lawrence Krauss
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Feardorcha
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Re: Sexist Question - De Wimmin and De Religion

Post by Feardorcha » Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:10 am

Thanks for that Ygern as I too wanted to return to the original post.
Some things we do know: religions are male organisations, run exclusively by men to 'worship' male gods. They are powerful allies of governments, kings - in fact any ruler - in controlling society. They teach and enforce by the most heinous methods that men are the god-given rulers and women are subserviant. So we must accept that men and women are not on a level playing field when it comes to choosing a new philosophy.
In fact, choosing to change your religion or world view is a very modern option and only available in some developed countries and even then in some communities as social sanctions can be very severe.
Ygern
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Re: Sexist Question - De Wimmin and De Religion

Post by Ygern » Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:38 pm

As a thought exercise, take the position of the traditional Irish mother in society not that many years back - someone who commanded a certain amount of respect and deference - and compare it with those unfortunates who got pregnant out of wedlock. Such women could very easily find themselves on the level of a criminal, forced to do hard labour, regarded as disposable, deserving of abuse and humilation. It is perhaps little wonder that towing the Catholic line was the safer position.

It may not have been a conscious decision and no doubt the situation was more complex than this (e.g. social & cultural influences etc.); but being a good Catholic wife and mother not only protected women from falling foul of the Powers That Were, but also afforded them a certain measure of society's approval.

I would imagine that the position of women is similar in Saudi Arabia today - the risk a woman runs by not conforming to the requirements of her religion is extremely serious, perhaps even life-threatening.

Both these examples are at the extreme end of the spectrum, but they do apply in a disguised & more mitigated form today in Ireland: fear of losing social standing, disapproval of family, friends, colleagues. These things matter more to some people than to others, and are easier to get away with in a city than a small village. Of course, these things apply to men as well. I would be interested in hearing both men and women's opinions on what they feel the social sanctions are (if any) for them to "come out" in their community, and whether it is easier or more difficult depending on their gender.
The universe is huge and old, and rare things happen all the time ~ Lawrence Krauss
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Beebub
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Re: Sexist Question - De Wimmin and De Religion

Post by Beebub » Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:39 pm

I've had this very conversation with a friend who lives in a small village in Ireland. It was directly to do with 'countmeout.ie'. There were no down sides to my defecting. I live in a city nto in the same suburb in which I grew up. My parents are atheists and so defecting had no real down side.

She said, it would inevitably get back to the PP in the village and she's already a little bit different because she doesn't go to mass. She's very involved with her community but at present that very much centres on the church and the PP. It would be seen as two fingers to the local church and not just to the organisation. So she feels there's too much down side and not enough up side to defecting so she's staying put.
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Re: Sexist Question - De Wimmin and De Religion

Post by Feardorcha » Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:35 pm

Apart from the social and community aspect of things, there is also an emotional or 'spiritual' aspect to religion. It is a crutch for those who haven't thought it through.
When you become a parent you are immediately a hostage to fortune. Every time your child leaves the house you are on hold, waiting. I believe this eventually ends when the child is 64 but in the meantime, a parent is constantly on guard, phychologically and emotionally. To have a kindly father figure watching over you and yours is a great comfort and this is why our speech is peppered with 'god bless' and 'holy mother of god' etc.
Women, as the birth-givers and primary child-minders must feel this stronger than men and maybe this is another reason why they are slower to embrace reason.
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