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Benjamin8urns
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Post by Benjamin8urns » Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:15 am

Beebub,

'I'm happy to separate knowledge from belief.'

I think that is the problem. This kind of materialistic naturalism has no room for the reality of the imagination. I don't think I am on the wrong forum. I think that atheism can be too much of a closed book.

The reality of the imagination may be different from reality outside the imagination, but it is not a separate reality. And I think the nature of existence should be the first thing one thinks about when approaching the idea of God.
Benjamin8urns
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Post by Benjamin8urns » Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:20 am

Catherder,

'You might be stretching things a bit to say that something exists just because you or someone else can think it up'

But I think these things do exist. And they exist due to them being imagined, as the imagination is a reality. They exist in a different way to that which is outside the brain, but they do exist.

And reality outside the brain is analysed by a mind susceptible to perception, so one shouldn't rule out the reality of the imagined.
Benjamin8urns
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Post by Benjamin8urns » Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:27 am

m_doc,

'And just because we cannot know now doesn't mean we will not know in the future.

In that respect, it is important to never stop questioning.'

Yes, questioning is good. I suppose what I have more of a disagreement with is being sure of oneself and taking sides, especially on something which is currently unknowable.

But then, I, like all other things it seems, am a contradiction. I do not want to take sides or be sure of myself, but in not wanting to do these things, I am doing these things.
CatHerder
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Re:

Post by CatHerder » Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:29 am

Benjamin8urns wrote:But I think these things do exist. And they exist due to them being imagined, as the imagination is a reality. They exist in a different way to that which is outside the brain, but they do exist.
In that case I should let you all know that there is a big fuzzy green monster in my kitchen and he's picking bits off a ham I boiled earlier.
Benjamin8urns wrote:I don't think I am on the wrong forum.
When Beebup suggests you are on the wrong forum he may mean that you should have posted this in Philosophy and Navel Gazing
Benjamin8urns
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Post by Benjamin8urns » Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:17 am

'In that case I should let you all know that there is a big fuzzy green monster in my kitchen and he's picking bits off a ham I boiled earlier.'

Haha! I accept his existence within your mind.

Yes, maybe this is the wrong forum.

Sorry if I came across a bit trollish at you Beebup, I'm a bit overtired and excitable, and I wanted to give you people someone with a different line of thinking to debate with, rather than the usual 'I believe, but there's evidence against that, but God needs no evidence,' argument.
MichaelNugent
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Re:

Post by MichaelNugent » Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:35 am

Benjamin8urns wrote:In order to not believe in a God, then you have to admit your disbelief in the thoughts of other human beings. Because, as I have argued, God exists within the neurons of the brain. If you do not admit this disbelief then either you are not an atheist, or, you think that the imagination exists beyond reality.
Benjamin, the idea of God exists within the neurons of the brain. That is not the same assertion as "God exists within the neurons of the brain." To be more accurate, we should pluralise that to "many different ideas of gods exist within the neurons of many different people's brains".
Benjamin8urns wrote:Also, there is my point about knowing ones own opinion. Do any of us have proof that what we think we believe is what we actually believe?
In strict philosophical terms, we cannot prove anything, because the only mechanism we have for testing the reliability of our thinking is our thinking itself. In order to function on a day-to-day basis, most of us make the assumption that things are broadly as they seem to be, based on applying reason to the apparent evidence of our senses.

If we want to park that assumption, then we should do so for everything, and not do so only when considering the topic of gods. In ordinary day-to-day functioning, it is rational to believe that gods do not exist (as objective entities outside of ideas in people's minds). It is certainly more rational to believe that than to believe the opposite - that gods do exist - because it is considerably more consistent with the apparent evidence of our senses.
Last edited by MichaelNugent on Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
AidanR
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Re:

Post by AidanR » Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:36 am

Benjamin8urns wrote:AidanR,

'the term atheist simply means the absence of a belief in any God'.

In order to not believe in a God, then you have to admit your disbelief in the thoughts of other human beings. Because, as I have argued, God exists within the neurons of the brain. If you do not admit this disbelief then either you are not an atheist, or, you think that the imagination exists beyond reality.

Also, there is my point about knowing ones own opinion. Do any of us have proof that what we think we believe is what we actually believe?
Ok, but then we can apply your analysis to any idea people made up, not just God, and we can never formulate an opinion about anything. I think, in order to talk meaningfully about the world, we need to make a distinction between things that exist as ideas, and things that exist separate to any individuals as real things.
CatHerder
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Re:

Post by CatHerder » Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:38 am

Benjamin8urns wrote:Yes, maybe this is the wrong forum.
No problem, sure we can move it to Philosophy. Welcome to Atheist Ireland Forums.
anadub25
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Re: There are no atheists

Post by anadub25 » Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:16 am

The mind is inferred from a physical thing. To say that the imaginings of one mind are real in the conventional sense of the term imples real for all "Being or occurring in fact or actuality; having verifiable existence" (thefreedictionary.com). Objective reality is independent of our perceptions of it. A theory which does not distinguish between real and imaginary makes a nonsense of everything.
"Religion is comparable to a childhood neurosis."

- Sigmund Freud -
Tulip1
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Re: There are no atheists

Post by Tulip1 » Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:41 am

Benjamin8urns wrote:It wouldn't be correct to say that I believe God's existence is 50/50. I believe in so far is as possible to do so, that it is most likely neither possible nor impossible. Neither scenario can be true. He cannot exist. He cannot not exist. This question of whether or not he exists mirrors, like everything else in existence, the contradiction of existence itself. So, most of all, we cannot know, nor claim to know. I reject the question.
sounds like a 50/50 change to me. That said, I only almost sure of anything if there is proof. The Qustion if there is a god is not even relefant to me in my life untill somebody comes up with proof that there is. Same for the super natural, nobody ever proofed that it exists therefore I'm more sure then unsure that there is no such thing.

And I think that's the point, the way you put it it is 50/50, the way I see it the balance of there being anything super natural is more liked 99% in favour of sure it is not there. And when proven that there would be anything super natural I'm happy to take the evidence on board and dicide then.

In the mean time I don't really care if he excists or not, it is other people pushing on me that he does (without proof) which makes me have to care. Same as it has no influence on my lfe if some kid has a imaginary friend till he/she makes a group and start telling me it should have a impact on my life.
Pope says atheists pick & choose their morals. Correct. Today I will be frowning on child abuse & not having a problem with homosexuality.
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