Proof for the existence an Intelligent Creator

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andersbranderud
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Proof for the existence an Intelligent Creator

Post by andersbranderud » Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:44 am

According to science our universe has a beginning (search at “age of the universe” on www.pnas.org) and time is purely physical. Therefore there can be no such thing as time external to the physical universe. Timespace has a beginning.

It is a fundamental law of physics (causality) that every physical occurrence in the universe has a cause.
The fundamental laws of physics then require a cause of the universe ex nihilo (since timespace has a beginning); i.e., a Prime Cause Singularity that is non-dimensional and independent of timespace.

To conclude the above paragraphs:
Fact: No thing nor event in the known universe or laws of physics lacks a cause.
Assume: There is no Prime Cause (Creator / Singularity).
Ergo: There is no universe.
Fact: There is a universe.
Therefore: the statement that was assumed is proven to be a false statement by reduction ad absurdum (proof by disproof).
(Since "There is no Creator" is proven false, the opposite is true: There is a Creator.)

Being logically consistent (orderly), orderly universe must mirror its Prime Cause / Singularity-Creator—Who must be Orderly; i.e. Perfect.
An orderly—"not capricious," as Einstein put it—Creator (also implying Just), therefore, necessarily had an Intelligent Purpose in creating this universe and us within it and, being Just and Orderly, necessarily placed an explanation, a "Life's Instruction Manual," within the reach of His subjects—humankind.

It defies the orderliness (logic / mathematics) of both the universe and Perfection of its Creator to assert that humanity was (contrary to His Tor•âh′ , see below) without any means of rapproachment until millennia after the first couple in recorded history as well as millennia after Abraham, Moses and the prophets. Therefore, the Creator's "Life's Instruction Manual" has been available to man at least since the beginning of recorded history. The only enduring document of this kind is the Tor•âh′ —which, interestingly, translates to "Instruction" (not "law" as popularly alleged). (Source and further reading of how to relate to the Creator: www.netzarim.co.il)

The fact that the Creator is perfect implies that He isn’t self-contradictory. Therefore any religion, and all religions contradicts each other (otherwise they would be identical), that contradicts Torah is the antithesis to the Creator.
nozzferrahhtoo
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Re: Proof for the existence an Intelligent Creator

Post by nozzferrahhtoo » Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:51 am

There is one contradiction, one error, one thing declared without any argument supporting it and one complete outright dishonesty in the above post. A lot of fails in one go. Let us look at each.

Contradiction

The contradiction built into the post above is that „time“ is required for there to be a „cause“. Causality is a purely time dependant notion.

So since the user above has stated that time is an attribute of the universe, how can there be a “cause” of the universe, as there was no time in which causality can occour.

The user has, essentially, proved himself wrong.

Error

The user has stated the universe had a beginning. We do not know this to be so. The current FORM of the universe clearly had a beginning as it changed from one for (a singularity) into its current form (a universe containing space, time etc).

Similar errors to this are people who talk of the universe “coming into being”. We just do not know if this is so. In fact considering we are beings trapped in time and space, the phrase “come into being” might not even be sensible before the universe’s current form and the reality may be much different or, depressingly, forever beyond our ability to understand. However we keep looking for the answer and hope we understand.

Declaration

The user generally declares that something must mirror all the attributes of its cause. The specific declaration was that the universe is orderly and so its cause must be too. Leaving aside the problem already outlined about it having a cause, the general declaration is false and the user has provided no support for it. He just stated it and moved on as if it was fact.

The user follows up with another declaration that orderly = perfect. This is purely subjective. If the user thinks something that is orderly is automatically perfect, then so be it, but this is personal user opinion, not fact.

Dishonesty

A quick search in quotation marks of this users contribution on the internet shows this passage above is from the net and is not even close to being the users own work. It is entirely someone else’s. However the honesty within the text reflects the honesty of the user who plagiarised the text. Suggest entire thread be deleted for both fear of possible copyright infringement and for just plain moral reason on the subject of intellectual plagiarism.
smiffy
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Re: Proof for the existence an Intelligent Creator

Post by smiffy » Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:35 am

I think it's the guy with the beard from the end of the Matrix Reloaded. He also made a lot of intelligent-sounding statements, linked with the word "ergo", which when looked at with any depth turned out to be a mix of non-sequiturs and gibberish.

That was a rubbish film.
Atheism is a religion the same way that NOT collecting stamps is a hobby - Scott Adams
Hemingway
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Re: Proof for the existence an Intelligent Creator

Post by Hemingway » Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:44 am

smiffy wrote:
That was a rubbish film.
.......and not just for the bad science contained within it either
Dont try to fix me, I'm not broken
nacho
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Re: Proof for the existence an Intelligent Creator

Post by nacho » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:28 pm

how about, something cant come from nothing, and we are all something, therefor, something outside the scope of science created something (us) and also science, therefor, creator.

PS, science cant define its creator no more than a loaf of bread can define it baker!

PSS: its about now that most atheists go mad at such an idea!!!
munsterdevil
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Re: Proof for the existence an Intelligent Creator

Post by munsterdevil » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:50 pm

nacho wrote:how about, something cant come from nothing, and we are all something, therefor, something outside the scope of science created something (us) and also science, therefor, creator.

PS, science cant define its creator no more than a loaf of bread can define it baker!

PSS: its about now that most atheists go mad at such an idea!!!
If something can't come from nothing, who created he creator?
Saying something outside the realm of science created us is a complete copout.
May I have the pleasure of knowing what your religion is?
Two possibilities exist: Either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying. Arthur C. Clarke
nacho
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Re: Proof for the existence an Intelligent Creator

Post by nacho » Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:15 pm

munsterdevil wrote:
nacho wrote:how about, something cant come from nothing, and we are all something, therefor, something outside the scope of science created something (us) and also science, therefor, creator.

PS, science cant define its creator no more than a loaf of bread can define it baker!

PSS: its about now that most atheists go mad at such an idea!!!
If something can't come from nothing, who created he creator?
Saying something outside the realm of science created us is a complete copout.
May I have the pleasure of knowing what your religion is?
No you may not, but you can guess.

how is it a copout! its the answer, you dont have to like it, but its the answer.
im sure you have heard it before, maybe you read St Augustine's "First Cause", but if a God exists, then he exists outside of time, and there for is infinite, therefor, does not need to be created.
Hemingway
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Re: Proof for the existence an Intelligent Creator

Post by Hemingway » Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:37 pm

nacho wrote:
No you may not, but you can guess.

how is it a copout! its the answer, you dont have to like it, but its the answer.
im sure you have heard it before, maybe you read St Augustine's "First Cause", but if a God exists, then he exists outside of time, and there for is infinite, therefor, does not need to be created.

What are you basing your assertion on? Nothing that I can see except a personal belief system and a not to clever play on words.

You bring nothing to the table except "What if's...."

Science tries to get answers through demonstrable evidence and a process of experimentation and peer review. Not by plucking guesses out of the air and proposing supernatural answers for which there is absolutely no evidence.

Why are you so coy about stating your religion? Not that it matters to me all that much as I'm of the opinion that whatever flock you choose to be a member of is your own choice and good luck to you.

But it does come across as a damage limitation measure in that you wish to protect yourself from leaving your beliefs wide open to ridicule. That’s just my take on it though......
Dont try to fix me, I'm not broken
munsterdevil
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Re: Proof for the existence an Intelligent Creator

Post by munsterdevil » Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:38 pm

Nacho Said:
No you may not, but you can guess.

how is it a copout! its the answer, you dont have to like it, but its the answer.
im sure you have heard it before, maybe you read St Augustine's "First Cause", but if a God exists, then he exists outside of time, and there for is infinite, therefor, does not need to be created.
Fine I'll guess that you are Christian (strange that you are so secretive)
You are up for winning a Nobel Peace Prize if you are 100% sure that it is the answer.
Why is it a copout? Because everything we know is based on science and to say that this one entity is not explained by science is a copout.

What makes you so sure that IF there is a creator it is a Christian one? What makes you so sure that it is even a benevolent one? Why not a Deist being? Why would a Christian God go to such lengths to hide itself? Why wait nearly fifteen billion years to allow the evolution of Homosapien and wait a further 100,000 years to supposedly make itself known to this species. At what stage in the evolution of Homosapien did God decide that they warranted a soul, thus allowing them into heaven?
Two possibilities exist: Either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying. Arthur C. Clarke
nozzferrahhtoo
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Re: Proof for the existence an Intelligent Creator

Post by nozzferrahhtoo » Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:01 pm

Query: Who claimed something came from nothing? I sure did not and I can see no one on this thread claiming it. So is nacho replying to anyone here or just someone in his head?

What we claim is that the universe as we know it came from a singularity of infinte mass and density.... about as far from nothing as it is possible to get.... and that we do not know the origin of this singuarity or if it may be eternal.

In fact as stated before, since the concept of time and things "coming from" anything, the question of where it came from or how long it was there may not even make any sense in the first place, but our minds are not equipped at this time to understand such a concept.
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