Marijuana Legalization in Ireland

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Tulip1
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Re: Marijuana Legalization in Ireland

Post by Tulip1 » Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:21 am

First of all welcome to the forum Decidal.

I my self never understood that alcohol is legal but other drugs are not. Achol is responsible for more deaths each year then all drugs together, yet when someone dies from taking a pill they call it a death drugs.

An other thing people tend to forget is how much it cost to put all this people through court and in jail for doing nothing more or less as most people do every weekend when they get drunk.
Pope says atheists pick & choose their morals. Correct. Today I will be frowning on child abuse & not having a problem with homosexuality.
robreynolds2
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Re: Marijuana Legalization in Ireland

Post by robreynolds2 » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:47 pm

Interesting discussion. I have one question however, we have been fighting a war against drugs in Ireland for many years now. Presumably the war would be considered to be won if all illegal drugs were removed from the country but my question is this:-

What would Ireland look like if the war on drugs was lost? What is the criteria for knowing when we are beaten?

Would it be heroin addicts in Mayo? A general rise in violent break-in and burglaries? Treatment centers driven beyond the brink?

I wounder if we asked this question to our politicians, what they consider defeat would be. (In terms of numbers)

I agree that some should be legalized along the lines of Prof. David Nutt. Basically based on scientific data and not personal feeling. This could be a good source of tax income. Inform people of the truth and if they want to take a risk then it is up to them.

Secondly the approach taken with younger people is nothing short of disgraceful. Blatant lies told to them to try to prop up the "Just Say No" campaign. Young people are not being properly empowered to make decisions since they are given one side of the story instead of a balance. This in turn encourages them to heed all the advice they have been given, even the stuff which is true like the dangers of heroin. The result then is the explosion in drug use and in turn addiction.

Nobody ever explains the physiological mechanics of addiction be it for drugs of alcohol. People don't see the problem before it is far too late.

A radical change is needed, in the US the big drug in the 1980's was cocaine, now its cannabis as people have copped on to the dangers of cocaine. People will not always look for the strongest drug just like people do not always look for the strongest drink. The gateway drug lie is probably the worst and most dangerous one going. It really surprises me that people still believe in the despite the evidence.
Morality is herd instinct in the individual - Friedrich Nietzsche

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DaithiDublin
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Re: Marijuana Legalization in Ireland

Post by DaithiDublin » Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:36 pm

What would Ireland look like if the war on drugs was lost? What is the criteria for knowing when we are beaten?
Take a look around! Last year when the Head Shops were driven under you saw the ugly reality of what happens when people act on emotion instead of reason. People were actually delighted when they were burnt out! I saw protesters cheering as peoples legitimate, legal, tax paying livelihoods went up in flames. No To Drugs they cheered, without a hint of irony and willing to overlook the fact that it was illegitimate, illegal, non-tax paying, cold hearted, life destroying drug dealers who had lit the flames to protect their own interests, not the interest of society at large.

If you have a nation of believers who cover the range of those who think that saying a novena to saint whatsit will help Timmy get a job, to those who see Mary in tree stumps, getting them to believe anything is so much easier.

The scientific, peer reviewed evidence of David Nutt wasn't enough to reverse the negative bias against marijuana.

It doesn't seem to matter how many reviews, reports or studies show the low levels of risk associated with it's use. The positive experiences of other states and countries that have changed their policy doesn't seem to matter.

The positive, medicinal uses are ignored. The harmful results of prohibition are ignored.

Two things cheered me up lately, as a regular user for over 25 years. Good auld Ming getting elected was one. No matter what you think of him, he's convinced his own community that it doesn't deserve it's reputation.

The other is a group called Law Enforcement Against Prohibition (LEAP) in the US. 40,000 strong, it's members are current and retired cops, judges, lawyers, DEA, FBI agents etc. They are becoming very vocal of late, and unlike the old skool 'Hippy' kind of activism, they bring reasoned, logical, ethical and workable arguments. The War on Drugs, of which they are the footsoldiers on the front line is not a war that can be won.

http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php

There are links to their Facebook and YouTube accounts on this page.


Personally, I think the fight for secularism is also the fight against the kind of uninformed and routinely regurgitated arguments that shape peoples opinions on not only the drugs issue, but also on subjects as diverse as GM crops, stem cell research, abortion, cloning, artificial intelligence etc.

Despite being mutually exclusive you will find that an awful lot of the same people who declare themselves devout Catholics will also believe in horoscopes, astrology, tarot cards and spiritualism.

The debate about legalising drugs, be you for it or against it, is one of those that can only be resolved with reason instead of emotion.
As yet I have not found a single case of a terrestrial animal which fertilises itself.

- Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species
(he obviously never went to Bray)
Mirthomaniac
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Re: Marijuana Legalization in Ireland

Post by Mirthomaniac » Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:58 pm

Despite college student status, I have never consumed a unit of alcohol or smoked anything. I'm not a white knight, I just don't find any appeal in them.

That said, I would be generally against banning things. If the war on drugs was shown to be effective, then I might support it if only for utilitarian purposes. The end might justify the means, though regular users would of course disagree.

I find the argument against legalisation indefensible, considering that at present, people all over the world are getting wasted on a drug that can in fact kill you due to excess, something marijuana is incapable of doing. And they're doing it as part of a communal, annual ritual of sorts.

Not to be prudish, of course. The observation is simply that, if one were to apply the same kind of reasoning to marijuana as is applied to alcohol, most people would probably look down on you as a waster.

Examples (from real people I know):

'I was at a party with family. You know what it's like being at a do with all your drunk relatives [note: this is true]. I can't stand drunks, unless I'm drunk.'

'You couldn't throw a house party and have people turn up to a house with no drink'.

Just put in marijuana in place of drink and you will probably inspire such tropes as 'addictive personality', 'buzz-chasing', 'dependence', and so on. To reiterate, I have a personal aversion to the actual mindset behind recreational drug use, but would generally be against prohibition.

Note also that most of my family and friends like a drink, and it's never a problem. Those who do seek to get completely off their face are generally interested in an extroverted party-like atmosphere, and as an introvert, this plays little role in my life.
Tulip1
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Re: Marijuana Legalization in Ireland

Post by Tulip1 » Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:58 pm

There is absolute no scientific reason to be against drugs such as hasj, weed, XTC and Cocaine and not alcohol.
Alcohol kills more people and is responsable for a lot of domestic voilence. If alcohol was invented now it would be a class A drugs.

In my opinion you can't be against legalizing drug if you don't want to ban alcohol.

That said the war on drugs is already lost. People are still using drugs and will continue to do so. In the mean time it cost the tax payer lots of money and no progress is been made.

The fact is that people want drugs/alcohol and when there is demand there is people that sell it.
You are better of controlling it by making it legal than washing your hands of it by making it illegal.
Pope says atheists pick & choose their morals. Correct. Today I will be frowning on child abuse & not having a problem with homosexuality.
Mirthomaniac
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Re: Marijuana Legalization in Ireland

Post by Mirthomaniac » Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:19 pm

Tulip1 wrote: In my opinion you can't be against legalizing drug if you don't want to ban alcohol.
I agree with your sentiments, but the standard counter-argument is that prohibition demonstrably did not work, so alcohol shouldn't be banned, but widening the addiction net is wrong at the same time. It's contradictory and silly, but what can I say?

By analogy, state-run brothels and the like would be preferable over individuals selling themselves on the street. I can just imagine the reaction to such a proposition, even though from an objective standpoint we have:

- reduced STD risk due to mandatory testing.
- eliminate pimping (similar to taking profits away from drug dealers by legalising marijuana)
- reduce possibility of other criminal 'interludes' (similar to getting 'bad weed', or getting caught up in other criminal activity in the case of drugs).
- reduce rape.
- generate taxable revenue (and job creation!)

Instead we have an act that is legal per se, but not allowed to be done in a solicited and regulated manner despite the obvious benefits.

The analogy may not work wrt drugs, but the point is that no amount of rational argument works when you have people opposed to something on principle for illogical reasons. 'What kind of society would we have if our state ran brothels?!' isn't so far from 'How could we allow these awful drugs to become legal?!'
Tulip1
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Re: Marijuana Legalization in Ireland

Post by Tulip1 » Thu Mar 17, 2011 8:00 pm

That's why brothels are legal in the Netherlands.

It stopped woman trade instantly.
Pope says atheists pick & choose their morals. Correct. Today I will be frowning on child abuse & not having a problem with homosexuality.
Dev
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Re: Marijuana Legalization in Ireland

Post by Dev » Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:42 am

I think the biggest problem is that people incorrectly reason that what is undesirable to them must also be undesirable to society. People also incorrectly assume that an argument for legalizing drugs is also an argument for taking them.
DaithiDublin
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Re: Marijuana Legalization in Ireland

Post by DaithiDublin » Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:41 am

I think the biggest problem is that people incorrectly reason that what is undesirable to them must also be undesirable to society. People also incorrectly assume that an argument for legalizing drugs is also an argument for taking them.

That sums it up as I see it. I only wish I could make my points so succinctly! :)
As yet I have not found a single case of a terrestrial animal which fertilises itself.

- Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species
(he obviously never went to Bray)
Tulip1
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Re: Marijuana Legalization in Ireland

Post by Tulip1 » Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:47 am

Very good point Dev. In portugal they made using drugs legal and guess what... the use of drugs went down!

I think you hit the nail on the head there, Dev
Pope says atheists pick & choose their morals. Correct. Today I will be frowning on child abuse & not having a problem with homosexuality.
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