Discuss church-state separation issues that are relevant in Ireland.
Joined:Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:28 pm

Post by lostexpectation » Mon May 25, 2009 6:35 am

http://dynamic.rte.ie/quickaxs/209-rte- ... ucane.smil
heres a long michael woods interview on rte radio

he says the state is at fault for sending the kids there, he has a point but abuse was carried out by the orders.

he said he did a deal cause otherwise the survivors would have to go to court to battle the orders, so he got deal and started the redress board

but in canada when it went to court the orders had to pay 25% not 10%

he was definitely deferential

again read mary raferty's article in reponse
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opi ... ml?via=rel
she says because the orders weren't honest with the inquiry they broke their end of the contract.
Joined:Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:28 pm


Post by lostexpectation » Tue May 26, 2009 3:09 pm

this is all about cementing the orders influence, they keep saying they've already given away the schools but the put in the trusts based on cementing their version of catholic teaching for the next hundreds years in these trust there cock a hoop at all this.
Joined:Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:28 pm


Post by lostexpectation » Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:34 pm

redress and the author of the book Ireland's Magdalen Laundries and the Nation's Architecture of Containment james smith which i posted about on the first page of this thread have come back into the news,
O'Keeffe criticised for referring to Magdalen women as 'employees'
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ire ... 61930.html

MINISTER FOR Education Batt O’Keeffe has been strongly criticised for his description of women committed to Magdalen laundries as “employees” of those institutions, and for his rejection of their eligibility for State compensation.
more of this deliberate decades long attempt to avoid responsibility by kicking it back between the church and state, when they were not so long along one in the same
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Post by FXR » Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:17 am

The Irish Gulag by Bruce Arnold is well worth reading on the subject as is Mary Rafterys own book. The Ryan report was an exercise in damage limitation.
When all the furore kicked off when this was brought to light a while ago they made noises about changing the level of compensation the orders would pay. A whole PR exercise kicked off which even included our president Holy Mary. They were supposed to be reporting back to the government on their assests.
Since then .....what?
The longer you can stall an answer the more the heat dies off. The spotlight moves on and the memory fades into darkness..... It works just about every time!

Clerical abuse Ryan Report congregations worth ‘€20 billion’
THE 18 congregations in the care home redress row could be worth as much as €20bn.

Properties they own are among the most desirable in Ireland and around the world, with one congregation even counting Jack Nicholson as a neighbour.

Others have accounts with the queen of England’s bankers, Coutts.

The astonishing figure is based on assets from Ireland and around the world. It includes care homes, hospitals, churches, schools, retirement homes, convents, publishing houses, youth hostels, internet firms, tour companies, farms and car parks.

Philip Beresford, the editor of the Sunday Times Rich List, said: ‘Based on the figures for Irish and UK income and property, a conservative estimate would be €15bn.

But the total value of all of the 18 congregations could be as much as €20bn.’

http://neilmichael.wordpress.com/2009/0 ... 0-billion/
Catholic orders plead poverty in Irish abuse
http://www.reasonproject.org/newsfeed/i ... ish_abuse/

DUBLIN – The Catholic orders responsible for abusing Ireland’s poorest children say they’re struggling to come up with money to help their victims. Yet investigations into their net worth paint a very different picture — that of nuns and brothers with billions’ worth of carefully sheltered assets worldwide.

Irish government leaders said Wednesday they expect the 18 religious orders involved in abusing children in workhouse-style schools to pay a much greater share of compensation to 14,000 state-recognized victims. They also demanded that the secretive orders reveal the true scope of their wealth for the first time in face-to-face negotiations with the government.

“We have to ascertain how much they actually have. The government is adamant and determined that they will make an appropriate contribution,” Defense Minister Willie O’Dea said.
And believe it or not if you ask the average Irish person in the street what the Indemnity Deal is, a lot of them (the majority I'd bet) don't know. That might be worth a day in the street with a couple of clipboards!
Human communication is a very rickety rope bridge between minds. Its too narrow to allow but a few thoughts to cross at a time. Many are lost in the chasms of noise, suspicion, misinterpretation and shooting the message through dislike of the messenger.
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Post by tony » Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:39 pm

http://www.examiner.ie/archives/2011/07 ... 59935.html
Abuse orders make €667m on property

By Conor Ryan, Investigative Correspondent

Monday, July 04, 2011

RELIGIOUS congregations responsible for abusing children in residential homes made €667 million in property deals between 1999 and 2009.

Almost all of these sales were made while the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse was investigating years of suffering endured by children in their care.

The properties included land banks, houses, farmyards, a swimming pool, a warehouse, sports grounds and convents.

A quarter of all these trades involved the 2,088-member Sisters of Mercy. Its four provinces sold 195 properties, including a €32m deal for 16 acres in Killarney.

The order still retained over €1 billion in land assets after these deals.

The 250-member Christian Brothers made €79m in the decade under review and the smaller Oblates of Mary Immaculate featured prominently because of the €105m it made by selling its Belcamp campus in north Dublin.

The top 13 trades by the orders brought in a combined €409m, while 313 units were sold for less than €1m apiece and together raised €81m.

Many of the orders have set aside millions from this activity to care for their aging congregations and clients in their care.

The €667m total consists of the revenue of 17 of the 18 orders which, in 2009, agreed to renegotiate the controversial 2002 indemnity deal.

The records of the transactions were supplied to the Department of Education after the Government demanded a review of their assets ahead of any re-negotiation.

The subsequent sales returns consisted of over 395 properties in the Republic, the North, Britain and America.

The details were released to the Irish Examiner with the orders’ agreement.

Some properties were transferred to community, public and diocesan bodies for nominal fees. Others were bought at peak prices by speculators and developers.

The asset review happened after a public backlash following the Ryan Report two years ago. The report’s contents forced the Government and the orders to revisit the deal which capped the liability of the orders at €128m. On the basis of the review the orders raised their offer to €476m. This was to go towards compensating victims, building the new National Children’s Hospital and erecting a memorial.

However, Education Minister Ruairi Quinn is seeking further property transfers. He wants the orders’ overall contribution to hit €680m, which would be half of the state’s €1.3bn compensation bill.

Despite these sales, the various orders retained a bank of property assets worth €3.07bn and a financial assets of €704m.

Valuations on the properties still owned by the orders were done in mid-2009 and do not reflect price falls since then.

The Conference of Religious in Ireland (CORI) is the representative body for all orders, including those not involved in the abuse scandal. It said it had no role or responsibility on this issue and would not make a comment on the sales data.

Efforts were made to contact all of the orders involved. Nearly all chose not to add anything to the financial reports submitted to the department.

This story appeared in the printed version of the Irish Examiner Monday, July 04, 2011
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Post by tony » Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:50 pm

Well done Ruairi. Keep it up.
Minister warns Church on abuse: I’ll send in the bailiffs
Irish Independent
Tuesday July 05 2011

The Government has threatened to send in the bailiffs after only two of 18 religious orders responsible for horrific child abuse moved to breach a compensation shortfall of up to €375m.

Despite the Catholic Church agreeing to cover half the €1.36bn bill for clerical child abuse claims, the congregations have refused to budge.

In the clearest signal yet that the Government is determined to force payment, Education Minister Ruairi Quinn is to pressure the orders to sign up to laws allowing the state to seize assets.

The Minister said he was disappointed at offers made since the 2009 Ryan Report revealed the shocking extent of decades-long sexual, physical and psychological abuse of the most vulnerable in institutions.

"The congregations' total offers fall well short, by several hundred million, of the €680m contribution they should bear towards the cost of institutional residential child abuse," he said.

"In April, I called on the orders to consider handing over appropriate school infrastructure as a way to make progress towards the 50:50 target contribution. I reiterate that call now."

The Department of Education said the 18 orders of priests and nuns offered €128m in cash, property and counselling services as part of a controversial indemnity deal dating back to 2002.

This was increased in 2009 to €348.5m after the Ryan report called for the 50:50 split between state and church - a cash pot of more than €100m, which was boosted by property which the orders valued at €235.5m.
Mr Quinn has written to the 18 orders with his response to their offers and asked for meetings to pursue the massive shortfall.

The Government said it has only received 20.6m euro (£18m) in cash to date.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news ... 13555.html
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Post by ctr » Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:15 am

Is anyone surprised :?
Each of us is here on earth for a reason, and each of us has a special mission to carry out - Maria Shriver
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Post by Feardorcha » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:58 am

http://irishtimes.newspaperdirect.com/e ... iewer.aspx
Today's Irish Times story has information on the trusts that some orders have set up to protect 'their' assets from the state.
It will be interesting to see the backlash in the coming days when the church mobilises its spokespeople in the media.
Let's hope Ruairi doesn't face a backlash in in the Cabinet and can press on with the denazification process in the schools. I'm sure any messages of support would be welcome right now.
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Post by Tulip1 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:19 am

I was pleasantly surpriced to see he wants schools and other usefull properties as payment and that he doesn't take what the church offers! good on him!!
Pope says atheists pick & choose their morals. Correct. Today I will be frowning on child abuse & not having a problem with homosexuality.
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Post by aZerogodist » Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:37 pm

Any transfer of properties to the State may be complicated by a decision by religious congregations to move ownership of schools into trusts in recent years.

In 2008, the Edmund Rice Trust assumed ownership of Christian Brothers and Presentation schools, while the previous year five female religious congregations, including the Sisters of Mercy and Daughters of Charity, transferred more than 100 secondary schools to Catholic Education an Irish Schools Trust.

The Department of Education said Mr Quinn would seek “the congregations’ agreement to a legal mechanism which would ensure that title to school infrastructure properties would be transferred to the State, at the State’s request, and that title to such properties could not be altered, whether by sale on the open market or by transfer into any trust arrangement, without the prior consent of the department”.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/fro ... 58341.html
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