LISBON TREATY

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Alexis
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LISBON TREATY

Post by Alexis » Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:46 am

Should Ireland vote Yes or No to the so-called Lisbon Treaty?

If Yes, why?

If No, Why?
Alexis
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Post by Alexis » Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:57 pm

:?:

Well, what do you guys think of the NO result? Is this good or bad for the future of Ireland?
NorthOfTheBorder
Atheist Ireland Member
Atheist Ireland Member
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Post by NorthOfTheBorder » Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:25 pm

I was against Lisbon so I'm happy with the result. I think that the EU is trying to turn itself into a federal state by stealth, Lisbon was another step down that road, and it's not in Ireland's interests to be part of that. With any luck, the spanner that we threw in the works on Thursday will encourage a more honest debate on the direction of the EU, both in Ireland and in the rest of Europe. If it does, then in the long run it will work out to everyone's benefit, not just Ireland's.
Stublore
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Post by Stublore » Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:22 am

Be interesting to see what Europe does with this result.
This treaty seemed to be a rehash of the last one, which was rejected, so imo if there is another vote on this issue under another name, then it's a slap in the face for democracy, afterall sometimes even democrats vote NO, and it should be as respected as a yes vote.
I also voted no for the following reasons in no particular order:
1) Protest vote against the government.
2)If the politicians can't be bothered to read and try to understand it, then it seems I am under no obligation to do so.
3)As I said above it was a rehash of the previous treaty, on which I also voted no.
4)They need to get things organised BEFORE inviting new members.
5)Did not really understand the whole thing, so if I don't know, I don't see how I could vote yes.
As regard how it will affect Ireland I'm not sure, but if we are punished for exercising our right then perhaps we would be better off out of it.
smiffy
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Post by smiffy » Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:35 pm

Stublore wrote:I also voted no for the following reasons in no particular order:
1) Protest vote against the government.
2)If the politicians can't be bothered to read and try to understand it, then it seems I am under no obligation to do so.
3)As I said above it was a rehash of the previous treaty, on which I also voted no.
4)They need to get things organised BEFORE inviting new members.
5)Did not really understand the whole thing, so if I don't know, I don't see how I could vote yes.
You don't see anything contradictions between the various reasons above, not to mention a number of instances of begging the question?
Atheism is a religion the same way that NOT collecting stamps is a hobby - Scott Adams
Stublore
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Post by Stublore » Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:09 pm

smiffy wrote:
Stublore wrote:I also voted no for the following reasons in no particular order:
1) Protest vote against the government.
2)If the politicians can't be bothered to read and try to understand it, then it seems I am under no obligation to do so.
3)As I said above it was a rehash of the previous treaty, on which I also voted no.
4)They need to get things organised BEFORE inviting new members.
5)Did not really understand the whole thing, so if I don't know, I don't see how I could vote yes.
You don't see anything contradictions between the various reasons above, not to mention a number of instances of begging the question?
No, but if you have any questions feel free to ask them :)
Alexis
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Post by Alexis » Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:10 am

NorthOfTheBorder wrote:I was against Lisbon so I'm happy with the result. I think that the EU is trying to turn itself into a federal state by stealth, Lisbon was another step down that road, and it's not in Ireland's interests to be part of that. With any luck, the spanner that we threw in the works on Thursday will encourage a more honest debate on the direction of the EU, both in Ireland and in the rest of Europe. If it does, then in the long run it will work out to everyone's benefit, not just Ireland's.
My sentiments exactly. Thank you, NoTB :)
CelticAtheist
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Post by CelticAtheist » Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:48 pm

NorthOfTheBorder wrote:I was against Lisbon so I'm happy with the result. I think that the EU is trying to turn itself into a federal state by stealth, Lisbon was another step down that road, and it's not in Ireland's interests to be part of that. With any luck, the spanner that we threw in the works on Thursday will encourage a more honest debate on the direction of the EU, both in Ireland and in the rest of Europe. If it does, then in the long run it will work out to everyone's benefit, not just Ireland's.
Absolutely WRONG.

Europe is pretty determined to move on without us, and a few papers are calling for debate over whether Ireland should leave the EU.. Only way that's going to change is if Cowen actually gets them to listen to him.

Well done Libertas, Coir and Sinn Fein, you absolute spanners...
FXR
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Post by FXR » Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:44 pm

NorthOfTheBorder wrote:I was against Lisbon so I'm happy with the result. I think that the EU is trying to turn itself into a federal state by stealth, Lisbon was another step down that road, and it's not in Ireland's interests to be part of that. With any luck, the spanner that we threw in the works on Thursday will encourage a more honest debate on the direction of the EU, both in Ireland and in the rest of Europe. If it does, then in the long run it will work out to everyone's benefit, not just Ireland's.
Weakening the Europe State just strengthened the Vatican State in Ireland. The religious fundamentalist elements of the CCL have just gotten themselves a political machine and Libertas is run by a self described practising Catholic. In a European "state" the influence of religion in Ireland was on a hiding to nothing. But the situation now is all our main political parties have been left with egg on their faces and some of the most powerful politicians in Europe are staring straight at this little island.
Human communication is a very rickety rope bridge between minds. Its too narrow to allow but a few thoughts to cross at a time. Many are lost in the chasms of noise, suspicion, misinterpretation and shooting the message through dislike of the messenger.
TomBarry
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Post by TomBarry » Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:23 am

I voted YES because I believe in an efficiently run, secular and united Europe. Many of my work colleagues voted no and most of the reasons they gave for this had nothing to do with the Lisbon treaty, for example
Militarization of Europe (we have a government triple lock to protect against being forced into any war situation)
Abortion (nothing to do with treaty)
Losing influence (we're guaranteed to lose it now)
Loss of sovereignty (did the majority of people in the south of Ireland worry about what the british government was doing in the north since partition, not likely so why bleat on about sovereignty now)
Taxes (The EU have no direct control over personal or corporate taxes)
Influx of foreign workers (it's funny how we expect to be able to work anywhere in the world but can't find it within ourselves to welcome workers here)
Reduction of grants for infrastructure, farming etc (when are we going to get into our heads that we can't just keep on taking all the time. Compared to the vast majority of countries in the world we are loaded. This hand out and poor us culture has to stop)

With a yes vote, Europe would be a more secular influence on Ireland, it could buffer our economy from actions taken by larger emerging economies like Russia, China and India. Take natural gas for example and what Russia did to Georgia recently. That could be us and once we've lost influence in Europe, who's going to give a damn
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