LISBON TREATY

Discuss Irish and International politics
FXR
Posts: 3176
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:44 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: LISBON TREATY

Post by FXR » Mon Aug 31, 2009 2:32 pm

I'm voting Yes again. In this country a No vote seems to mean less EU more CCL. Most of the basic problems that make this country a Vatican stellite state have been challenged by the EU, not the gombeen men in the Dail.
Human communication is a very rickety rope bridge between minds. Its too narrow to allow but a few thoughts to cross at a time. Many are lost in the chasms of noise, suspicion, misinterpretation and shooting the message through dislike of the messenger.
anadub25
Posts: 152
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:11 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: LISBON TREATY

Post by anadub25 » Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:33 pm

Argh im so confused!

It does seem to me though that the referendum is too important to use one's vote to protest against having to vote twice on the Lisbon Treaty. I'm setting aside any indignant bias and voting on the treaty itself.

Its the implications of the treaty that i dont grasp rather than the particulars of it. Its all so abstract, 'european solidarity', 'progressive', what does it all mean?! And how sure are Yes voters that this wont affect tax, social welfare, education etc in a negative way?
"Religion is comparable to a childhood neurosis."

- Sigmund Freud -
Beebub
Atheist Ireland Member
Atheist Ireland Member
Posts: 1014
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:22 pm

Re: LISBON TREATY

Post by Beebub » Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:06 pm

I'm setting aside any indignant bias and voting on the treaty itself.
I only wish there were more like you. Without a doubt this is a major reason why it failed. The taxi men were telling all their members and families and friends and anyone they knew/ would listen to them to vote no unless the government sacked the sitting taxi regulator. What a shower!

Another group (possible more than one) were campaigning for a no vote unless such an such services were not re-instated to the local hospital.

They're just two of a bunch of crappy reasons people voted no.

I'm all for freedom of speech but a decision to vote yea or nay on the Lisbon treaty should be made just on that; The Lisbon Treaty.
FXR
Posts: 3176
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:44 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: LISBON TREATY

Post by FXR » Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:31 pm

I know someone who'se voting no because they started closing the off licences at 10pm.

I can't see how it would make our tax situation worse: this country is heading for the s**thole thanks to the mess it's in. We're going to be paying a lot more tax in the future regardless of Lisbon.
Human communication is a very rickety rope bridge between minds. Its too narrow to allow but a few thoughts to cross at a time. Many are lost in the chasms of noise, suspicion, misinterpretation and shooting the message through dislike of the messenger.
Tulip1
Atheist Ireland Member
Atheist Ireland Member
Posts: 1529
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 1:07 pm
Location: Sligo

Re: LISBON TREATY

Post by Tulip1 » Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:54 pm

is nobody afraid that when Ireland votes no again, Europe will stop all funding?
Pope says atheists pick & choose their morals. Correct. Today I will be frowning on child abuse & not having a problem with homosexuality.
anadub25
Posts: 152
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:11 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: LISBON TREATY

Post by anadub25 » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:04 pm

Beebub wrote:to vote no unless the government sacked the sitting taxi regulator. What a shower!

Another group (possible more than one) were campaigning for a no vote unless such an such services were not re-instated to the local hospital.
:shock: These and the off license examples are shocking shit.

I saw on the news that the majority of farmers are voting yes and they have traditionally turned out in high numbers on polling day.
"Religion is comparable to a childhood neurosis."

- Sigmund Freud -
Dev
Atheist Ireland Member
Atheist Ireland Member
Posts: 914
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:10 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: LISBON TREATY

Post by Dev » Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:51 am

Tulip1 wrote:is nobody afraid that when Ireland votes no again, Europe will stop all funding?
EU is not going to stop any funding to Ireland based purely on our rejection or acceptance of the Lisbon Treaty unless there is a provision in the treaty regarding funding.

EU is not going to kick us out of the EU if we reject it a second time.

We will have egg on our faces in Europe if we reject it from a political stand point. Ireland has been the EU poster boy for the past fifteen years.

The Lisbon Treaty is not undemocratic, Ireland may be the only country having a referendum but the elected representatives passed the proposed changes in their respective countries. Having a referendum a second time is not undemocratic, it is a little cheeky at best but if the majority of voters don't want it they will say no again. This isn't the first time Ireland has done this remember the Nice treaty and the divorce treaty. It is like something you expect off Father Ted not on a world stage.

EU: "Would you like a cup of Treaty Ireland?"
Ireland: "Nah"
EU: "Aghh go on out of that you will"
Ireland: "Go on so, throw in some sweeteners and a drop of commissioner"


Some traditionally highly Euro-Skeptic nations are changing their opinion of the EU. The two differences between Ireland and Iceland aren't one letter and six months. They are E and U.

Look at the political parties against the Lisbon Treaty, Liberatas, Sinn Fein and some other nutter groups. Do they really represent the wide spectrum and mainstay of the Irish population? I'm no fan of Fianna Fail but I wouldn't touch Liberatas. Declan Ganley had a seriously questionable agenda, he would profit from a Lisbon no.
A lot of his hardcore supporters on the trail are conservative Catholics, who volunteer that their top issue is abortion. Other elements of the No campaign last summer were happy to lie, flat out, and say that the Lisbon Treaty might impose abortion on demand in Ireland. Mr Ganley, when asked about this, is more careful, but still pretty cynical. When asked about this, he starts his replies by conceding that abortion is not one of the legal competences of the European Union. If he were playing entirely straight that, really, should be that. No EU treaty will affect abortion laws at the national level, because it has been obvious for years that this is a very sensitive issue. So for years, the EU has steered well clear of it.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlema ... or_dil.cfm
In March, Fine Gael TD Lucinda Creighton was ridiculed by Libertas for suggesting that Europe needs an army. Responding, Creighton asked whether Ganley's opposition to the Lisbon Treaty was due to the involvement of his company, Rivada Networks, in the provision of US military equipment and intelligence (Gay Mitchell MEP went even further last week, asking if Libertas is backed by the CIA).
Rivada Networks boasts a customer base that includes US Military Northern Command and a boardroom that contains two former US admirals.
"Rivada Networks is a public safety communications company," Ganley responded, adding that the company had only been involved in US rescue and disaster operations.
So that's cleared up that then.
Libertas was first mooted in 2003 in a paper written by Ganley for a conservative American think tank with a long tradition of promoting military action and "strong defence capability in pursuit of US foreign policy goals"
http://www.herald.ie/opinion/so-who-is- ... 02680.html


The No campaign lied through their teeth the last time on more than one or two of the issues, they lied about tax increases, abortion, a European army, loss of our neutrality etc

I agree with the evaluation of the why the treaty was rejected by the Times reporter posted by bipedal humanoid. Pretty much sums up what I thought myself.
Tulip1
Atheist Ireland Member
Atheist Ireland Member
Posts: 1529
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 1:07 pm
Location: Sligo

Re: LISBON TREATY

Post by Tulip1 » Tue Sep 01, 2009 6:51 pm

I do agree with you there Dev, the no campian was really lying and making stuff up. I'm not against Europe as a trade union and I even like the euro. I'm not to sure about more political power going to Brussel. I think small counties will always be led by the bigger ones, saying that France and Germany already presured Holland 10 years ago to change their drug policy (and we did).
Pope says atheists pick & choose their morals. Correct. Today I will be frowning on child abuse & not having a problem with homosexuality.
mkaobrih
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 1601
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:48 pm

Re: LISBON TREATY

Post by mkaobrih » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:05 pm

I’ll be voting yes as will my husband and son. I hate Irish parochialism and more involvement in Europe will remove this.
The church complains of persecution when it's not allowed to persecute.
Feardorcha
Atheist Ireland Member
Atheist Ireland Member
Posts: 1266
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 4:28 pm

Re: LISBON TREATY

Post by Feardorcha » Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:15 pm

STUBLORE: 1) Protest vote against the government.
2)If the politicians can't be bothered to read and try to understand it, then it seems I am under no obligation to do so.
3)As I said above it was a rehash of the previous treaty, on which I also voted no.
4)They need to get things organised BEFORE inviting new members.
5)Did not really understand the whole thing, so if I don't know, I don't see how I could vote yes.
As regard how it will affect Ireland I'm not sure, but if we are punished for exercising our right then perhaps we would be better off out of it.
Works for me and being a democrat and wanting a democratic Europe I need to protect the vote I voted last time. Also, since this rotten government doesn't give a rat's behind for democracy, all the voting cards coming to this block of apartments will be voting 'no'.
Post Reply