IHRC launches discussion paper

Issues relating to promoting a secular state education and raising children in a non-religious home
Marks
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IHRC launches discussion paper

Post by Marks » Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:24 pm

The IHRC have launched a discussion paper on Religion, Education, a Human Rights Perspective.

http://www.ihrc.ie/download/pdf/ihrc_di ... _arial.pdf

Submissions can be made by individuals and groups. Submissions must be made to the Commission by the 31st of January 2011.
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Re: IHRC launches discussion paper

Post by mkaobrih » Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:21 pm

It was a very interesting conference – concerned people should read the papers- maybe some one from boards.ie should post a link in parenting - Playing devils advocate here - but if we had secular schools here in Ireland (I wish), then only kids of secular parents would feel completely at home in them – if we (AI) are for a pluralistic society, how can we accommodate religious people in a secular setting? - Maybe some kind of non assertive or aggressive soft secularism instead of hard secularism? I’m neither religious nor rational (some/most of the time) but I do believe that religious people can behave in a rational and reasonable manner that can be accommodated into society the same way I wish that non religious people were.
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Re: IHRC launches discussion paper

Post by Tulip1 » Thu Dec 02, 2010 8:32 am

I think I have still a boards.ie account, I will read it and post it in the afternoon
Pope says atheists pick & choose their morals. Correct. Today I will be frowning on child abuse & not having a problem with homosexuality.
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Re: IHRC launches discussion paper

Post by lostexpectation » Thu Dec 02, 2010 9:54 am

mkaobrih wrote:It was a very interesting conference – concerned people should read the papers- maybe some one from boards.ie should post a link in parenting - Playing devils advocate here - but if we had secular schools here in Ireland (I wish), then only kids of secular parents would feel completely at home in them – if we (AI) are for a pluralistic society, how can we accommodate religious people in a secular setting? - Maybe some kind of non assertive or aggressive soft secularism instead of hard secularism? I’m neither religious nor rational (some/most of the time) but I do believe that religious people can behave in a rational and reasonable manner that can be accommodated into society the same way I wish that non religious people were.

trying too hard to please (u sounds like Dick Spicer) you know secularism puts no imposition on religious families.

again we choose secularism as it the only system that we think can work not just for secularism sake.
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Re: IHRC launches discussion paper

Post by funkyderek » Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:59 am

mkaobrih wrote:It was a very interesting conference – concerned people should read the papers- maybe some one from boards.ie should post a link in parenting - Playing devils advocate here - but if we had secular schools here in Ireland (I wish), then only kids of secular parents would feel completely at home in them – if we (AI) are for a pluralistic society, how can we accommodate religious people in a secular setting? - Maybe some kind of non assertive or aggressive soft secularism instead of hard secularism? I’m neither religious nor rational (some/most of the time) but I do believe that religious people can behave in a rational and reasonable manner that can be accommodated into society the same way I wish that non religious people were.
It may take some mental adjustment for religious parents to get used to the idea, but that's only because they have become so used to the absurd idea that their children's religious education should take place in a state school. A secular school in no way discriminates against or marginalises the religious, any more than a secular workplace does. Nobody feels excluded where I work simply because we don't start the day with a prayer or close once a month to go to mass.
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Marks
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Re: IHRC launches discussion paper

Post by Marks » Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:30 pm

The consultation process that the IHRC has started is about human rights and education.

At the very back of the discussion paper they state the following:-


"The purpose of the paper is to set out the human rights standards pertaining under the Constitution and international agreements to which the State is a party and on the basis of those standards to elicit responses to a number of questions. On the basis of the feedback received and further analysis, the IHRC will made recommendations to Government pursuant to Section 8 (e) of the Human Rights Commission Act 2000 on the measures required for the State to meet its human rights obligations in this area."

The IHRC are looking at human rights standards and the standards in the Constitution not the standards under Cannon Law or any religious law or belief.
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Re: IHRC launches discussion paper

Post by Tulip1 » Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:26 pm

Pope says atheists pick & choose their morals. Correct. Today I will be frowning on child abuse & not having a problem with homosexuality.
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Re: IHRC launches discussion paper

Post by aZerogodist » Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:00 pm

lostexpectation wrote:trying too hard to please (u sounds like Dick Spicer) you know secularism puts no imposition on religious families.
HAI post-Dick Spicer, looks to have a new lease of secular life, their new website is really impressive, in the past they have been too passive, well done to them.

I don't think any of us would object to a subject on religions once it's not faith formation, in America they have Sunday school, so faith formation can be done outside of the classroom. Also I don't think many parents would object to the removal of faith formation from the classroom, as it's not really education, anyway there will still be private CCL schools, at the moment they treat our public schools as their own proselytising incubators. I have always thought that a subject on social studies, covering topics like drugs, sex, crime, suicide, marriage, religions would be more of a benefit, without the imposition of the CCL ethos. Knowledge on topics that effect young people can empower them to better understand what affects them, rather than corrupt-knowledge.
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Re: IHRC launches discussion paper

Post by Marks » Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:49 am

aZerogodist wrote:I don't think any of us would object to a subject on religions once it's not faith formation,
The Catholic Church do object to religious instruction (formation) outside the school day.

At the Conference last Saturday Prof Gerry Whyte spoke and he gave a really good insight into the Irish Constitution.

Once there is religious instruction (formation) during the school day then religious parents have a right to demand a religious ethos (integrated curriculum) in that school.

This means that these New Vec Community Schools are simply religious schools and under our Constitution can operate a religious ethos as they permit religious instruction during the school day. Even if the state wanted to confine religious instruction to a specific class they have not got the power to do this under the Irish Constitution.

As Whyte stated in his paper:-

"Barrington J went on to point out that Article 42 contemplated children receiving religious education in schools recognised or established by the State but in accordance with the wishes of the parents. As we have already noted, he took the view that religious education in this sense was not the same as the 'religious instruction' referred to in Article 44.2.4, the former being a much wider concept than the latter, and inasmuch as Article 44.2.4 guaranteed the right of a child not to have to attend religious instruction at a publicly funded school, it did not protect him from being influenced by the religious ethos of that school. Parents had the right to have religious education provided in the schools which their children attend and were not obliged to settle merely for religious 'instruction'. "
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Re: IHRC launches discussion paper

Post by IrishAndroid » Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:25 pm

mkaobrih wrote:Playing devils advocate here - but if we had secular schools here in Ireland (I wish), then only kids of secular parents would feel completely at home in them – if we (AI) are for a pluralistic society, how can we accommodate religious people in a secular setting?
Playing the anti-theist that I am- the primary functions of schools is to educate and prepare children for life, not help parents indoctrinate children into their faith. Having kids wait to get home to pray and be taught stories doesn't negatively impact the functions of schools or cause severe distress to children or parents. If parents feel so strongly about it they can pay for private religious schools which should be in no way financed by the tax payer and be highly regulated as to avoid the shameful Muslim school fiasco.

On the otherhand appeasing religious people has a lot of very negative effects - having spent school time standing outside of classrooms, holding my tongue during prayers or being brushed aside into an empty room while religious stuff was happening I can tell you that having religion in schools far more negatively impacts secular children. Furthermore we'll probably end up with the VEC approach- segregation and further imparting of a destructive tribal mindset on children where they're labeled "Catholic", "Protestant", "Muslim" or "Other"

Faith outside of school hours is the only fair solution. Comparative religion studies, i.e. history and culture, is a completely different matter.
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