Ruairi Quinn plans forum on removing Catholic Patronage

Issues relating to promoting a secular state education and raising children in a non-religious home
Byron
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Re: Ruairi Quinn plans forum on removing Catholic Patronage

Post by Byron » Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:18 pm

canasta42 wrote:Hi, my first post to this site, spurred by an article in this morning's Irish Times ("Forum to examine school patronage" 11.45 am). If you go to "www.education.ie" (the Department's site) to follow this story, you will find:

List of Bodies which will be invited to participate in the Forum

An Foras Pátrúnachta
Catholic Primary Schools Management Association
Church of Ireland Board of Education
Association of Trustees of Catholic Schools
Educate Together
Gaelscoileanna Teoranta
Irish Catholic Bishops Conference
Irish National Teachers Organisation
Irish Primary Principals’ Network
Irish Vocational Education Association
Islamic Foundation of Ireland
National Association of Boards of Management in Special Education
National Parents Council – Primary


None of these bodies appears to represent atheists or humanists. The department, and 'Educate Together', speak of 'multi-denominational' education. I want 'non-denominational' education for my son. Will Atheist Ireland seek representation on the new minister's 'Forum'? Can we at least ask that all religions by thrown out of state-funded schools?
Educate Together are a fantastic group and they're the best way forward. Religious instruction is provided but only outside of normal school ours and at the request of the parents. Religious education in general is a part of the curriculum but it's world religions that are studied, and not just one particular religion.
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Re: Ruairi Quinn plans forum on removing Catholic Patronage

Post by Marks » Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:48 am

I agree that Educate Together are great, however they are not on that forum to respresent the non-religious viewpoint. They are there to represent themselves.

The Irish Human Rights Commission are not represented either and they are working on recommendations to Government on religion and education (a human rights perspective).
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Re: Ruairi Quinn plans forum on removing Catholic Patronage

Post by Beebub » Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:48 am

Sorry to be pessimistic on this whole issue. While I welcome Ruairi Quinn's efforts and thinks it's great that he's setting up this forum, I wouldn't hold my breath. I heard a quote from a rural head master and member of the CPSMA along the lines of 'Diarmuid Martin just represents Dublin. What about the rest of the country? We'll see what the CPSMA has to say aobut it.'

How will they choose schools to be divested? Can you see the catholic church just handing them over? I can't. They'll do it on the stipulation that nothing apart from patronage changes. Can you see a small rural community dominated by the local PP simply accepting the church being removed from the school? In so many rural communities, the local PP is in the school on a daily basis. They're not just going to stop and the catholic church won't stand for it.

Mark my words, it won't be long before we hear Paisley-esque language such as 'not an inch' from many vested interests.
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Re: Ruairi Quinn plans forum on removing Catholic Patronage

Post by chemicals » Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:46 am

Beebub wrote:Mark my words, it won't be long before we hear Paisley-esque language such as 'not an inch' from many vested interests.
Hmm ya could be right there ! :(
والقس هو مجنون
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Re: Ruairi Quinn plans forum on removing Catholic Patronage

Post by Marks » Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:14 pm

Well the State cannot take the schools away from the Catholic Church by force as Article 44.2.6 of the Irish constitution forbids that. In their Policy Document on Education the Catholic Church states that Catholic schools are upholding the Constitutional Right of Catholic parents to have a Catholic Education for their children. Catholic Church teaching is that it is the duty and right of Catholic parents to choose schools that can best promote the Catholic education of their children. As that is part of Cannon Law (793) I cannot see the Catholic Church handing over any schools to the state as long as even a minority of Catholics in any school want Catholic education for their children. If they did that they would be going against their own teaching and breaching Cannon Law and they simply won’t do that. The Catholic Church says that Church law and human rights law are the same but they are not. The UN has already taken Ireland to task four times over Catholic education and the right to freedom of conscience of minorities.

In fact the Catholic Church has already laid down the criteria for handing over patronage in their policy document on Catholic education into the future.
http://www.catholicbishops.ie/wp-conten ... future.pdf

5.2 “In certain circumstances it may be considered desirable to enter into new patronage arrangements, provided these arrangements respect the rights of Catholic parents, in particular in relation to the religious instruction of their children within the school curriculum”

The above means that the Catholic Church will only hand over patronage if the new patronage model permits religious instruction during the school day and the integration of religion throughout the curriculum. Not only that but Section 5.3 in the same document states that if there is no Catholic School or school that is suitable for Catholics in a given area they want the state to bus Catholic Children to a suitable school. Suitable schools are schools that integrate religion into all subjects.

It seems to me that this new Forum is up against Cannon Law and it will be interesting to see the outcome.

Of course we will be seeking that the State upholds our rights under Article 42.3.1 which they conveniently ignore by saying that Catholic Education does not breach the right to freedom of conscience of minorities.

“The State shall not oblige parents in violation of their conscience and lawful preference to send their children to schools established by the State, or to any particular type of school designated by the State.”
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Re: Ruairi Quinn plans forum on removing Catholic Patronage

Post by Bik » Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:22 pm

It seems the RCC are bucking over this already

http://www.independent.ie/education/lat ... 98203.html
CATHOLIC Church leaders last night said they were shocked by Education Minister Ruairi Quinn's target of transferring more than 1,500 church schools to other patrons.
"Prayer has no place in the public schools, just like facts have no place in organized religion." Superintendent Chalmers
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Re: Ruairi Quinn plans forum on removing Catholic Patronage

Post by Beebub » Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:45 pm

Wow, my prediction didn't take long to come to fruition. It will be a slow process...
the paper will stress the issue of parental choice and is likely to call for pilot projects in a small number of areas where there is felt to be an over-supply of church schools.
People have already started to bleat...

Iona says...
This means guaranteeing the admissions policy of those schools, their employment policy, and also that they can teach whatever is compatible with their beliefs.
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Re: Ruairi Quinn plans forum on removing Catholic Patronage

Post by tony » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:34 pm

Marks wrote:Well the State cannot take the schools away from the Catholic Church by force as Article 44.2.6 of the Irish constitution forbids that.
Marks, I would contend that the state is within its rights to take schools from the church in compensation for the abuse scandals.

Article 44.2.6 of the Constitution states "The property of any religious denomination or any educational institution shall not be diverted save for necessary works of public utility and on payment of compensation."
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Re: Ruairi Quinn plans forum on removing Catholic Patronage

Post by lostexpectation » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:50 pm

where did quinn say 50pc of all primary schools the speech he gave at the conference inferred maybe a dozen in dublin?
test
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Re: Ruairi Quinn plans forum on removing Catholic Patronage

Post by Marks » Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:30 pm

tony wrote:Marks, I would contend that the state is within its rights to take schools from the church in compensation for the abuse scandals.
The meaning of compensation in Article 44.2.6 is that the State must pay the Catholic Church compensation if it takes over Catholic schools for necessary works of public utility.

If we look at the exact wording of this Article, I honestly don't believe that the state would get away with taking schools from the Church in compensation for the abuse scandals. It would really be great if they could but that is not even on the agenda. If we look in detail at what Ruairi Quinn is saying he is very careful to making clear that it is the Catholic Church handing over the schools.
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